CESA Training

[VikingDives]

They can be used for BCD rebreathing as well as manual inflation of the BCD.

So can any inflator. Saying that they are special makes it a strawman, since the Air2 when used as a octo is specifically not doing any rebreathing of the BCD. When being used as an oral inflation (or re-breathing device), it's not being used as as second stage.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I would rather re-breathe into the BC as well, if from 30m. I agree with most of the other suggestions lately as well (though vertical in a pool from 9-10' makes no sense). And of course about the stress instructors have with so many on a course. All been discussed before. My only point is if it is taught it should be practiced now and again, or else teaching it is pointless. Whether it should be taught at all is a whole different discussion.

I grew up body surfing and holding my breath for swimming down to see things at depth as a child in the 1970's. I could do around 90 seconds to 2 minutes at best. This was before free diving became a thing. No one taught us any courses and we sure did get that I wanna breathe before I die feeling. Has that helped for diving? I cannot say as I have never been OOA myself only assisted other OOA divers. Sometimes after a few day dives I may go out before sunset and practice some descents with my mask snorkel weight belts and see if I can still get to 20m depth and back to the surface. Sometimes I snorkel to around 5m depth just to see how long I can stay down. I was in Boracay with my wife my sister and her husband. We were then when Typhoon Yolanda hit. We went out on a boat and I wanted to see the damage to the reefs from the storm surges. One my first snorkel down the boat crew were telling my sister he's been gone a minute maybe he should be back up. She is like, nah, if there was a puddle of water as a kid he would be in it.
1 minute? Tell me when he gets to 2 minutes lol.

 

[BoltSnap]

Ask yourselves about the Air2 regulator that is fitted on the inflator hose for emergency use to get air from through BCD when they donate their primary to an OOA diver.

This isn't true, when you breath from the AIR II, you don't "get air from through BCD" at all. The air you breathe from the AIR II comes directly from the LP hose connected to the AIR II and it doesn't go through the BC at all.

 

[Blackcrusader]

This isn't true, when you breath from the AIR II, you don't "get air from through BCD" at all. The air you breathe from the AIR II comes directly from the LP hose connected to the AIR II and it doesn't go through the BC at all.

Yes sorry Me culpa on that error.

 

[TMHeimer]

I grew up body surfing and holding my breath for swimming down to see things at depth as a child in the 1970's. I could do around 90 seconds to 2 minutes at best. This was before free diving became a thing. No one taught us any courses and we sure did get that I wanna breathe before I die feeling. Has that helped for diving? I cannot say as I have never been OOA myself only assisted other OOA divers. Sometimes after a few day dives I may go out before sunset and practice some descents with my mask snorkel weight belts and see if I can still get to 20m depth and back to the surface. Sometimes I snorkel to around 5m depth just to see how long I can stay down. I was in Boracay with my wife my sister and her husband. We were then when Typhoon Yolanda hit. We went out on a boat and I wanted to see the damage to the reefs from the storm surges. One my first snorkel down the boat crew were telling my sister he's been gone a minute maybe he should be back up. She is like, nah, if there was a puddle of water as a kid he would be in it.
1 minute? Tell me when he gets to 2 minutes lol.

I did a ton of body surfing and "snorkeling down" as a kid in the late '60s. Also a lot of "free diving" looking for shells until I took OW in 2005. But, deepest I think I went down was 12 feet in Cuba. I maybe could hold my breath for a minute if just sitting still.
Quite a few here mention doing a CESA free diving as being good training or "safer" than on scuba. I have trouble relating one situation to the other.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

Here I sit broken hearted attempted to disseminate a conclusion and only farted

 

[Angelo Farina]

I did a ton of body surfing and "snorkeling down" as a kid in the late '60s. Also a lot of "free diving" looking for shells until I took OW in 2005. But, deepest I think I went down was 12 feet in Cuba. I maybe could hold my breath for a minute if just sitting still.
Quite a few here mention doing a CESA free diving as being good training or "safer" than on scuba. I have trouble relating one situation to the other.

The relation is simple. When you are a good deep free diver and can go down to 20-25 meters on a single breath, you are mentally quite sure of being able to perform a CESA from the same depth.
Your mental state is of utmost importance when you suddenly are OOA. If you are calm and act properly it is easy to reach the surface with no harm. If you panic, the chances are much lower.
As modern training to free diving is focused on brain and body control, a good deep free diver is almost impossible to panic when scuba diving and being OOA...
So I repeat my suggestion to the OP: if you are afraid of a CESA from 30m, get trained to free dive at the same depth. It will take several months and a lot of effort, working both on your body and particularly on your brains, but at the end you will not be anxious anymore of being OOA at 30m.
In the meanwhile (and even later) a small pony tank is a good reassuring thing to always carry with you.
If others cricticise you for that, leave them talking.

 

[scubaozy]

Yes, I agree to this, if you are confident to swim up from 30m with your equipment, keeping the airway open is hardly a skill, so, freediving will surely prepare you for CESA or increase your safe ascent probability.
At the same time, I do not find redundant air supply discussion very relevant, pre-condition for CESA consideration is you already exhausted AAS or RAS options, I mean you can breath your pony empty and still having to do CESA anyway.
I remember reading that, in a lot of OOA related fatalities, weights were not ditched and I think this could be related to the fact that most of the divers consider buoyant emergency ascent as much more theoretical option. To consider CESA or BEA risky is a risk on its own imho.
With 30 meters OOA situation, you must be prepared to ditch the weights because you are more in uncontrolled emergency ascent territory. This is the reason I find practicing CESA from 30m unnecessary; you ascent as much as you can and you ditch the weights whenever you cannot take it anymore. So practicing cesa from 5-10 meters is sufficient. Question is whether you will take the decision to start to ascent or even ditch your weights on time. Improving in water skills such as free diving will give you the confidence to take that decision when **** hits the fan.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, I agree to this, if you are confident to swim up from 30m with your equipment, keeping the airway open is hardly a skill, so, freediving will surely prepare you for CESA or increase your safe ascent probability.
At the same time, I do not find redundant air supply discussion very relevant, pre-condition for CESA consideration is you already exhausted AAS or RAS options, I mean you can breath your pony empty and still having to do CESA anyway.
I remember reading that, in a lot of OOA related fatalities, weights were not ditched and I think this could be related to the fact that most of the divers consider buoyant emergency ascent as much more theoretical option. To consider CESA or BEA risky is a risk on its own imho.
With 30 meters OOA situation, you must be prepared to ditch the weights because you are more in uncontrolled emergency ascent territory. This is the reason I find practicing CESA from 30m unnecessary; you ascent as much as you can and you ditch the weights whenever you cannot take it anymore. So practicing cesa from 5-10 meters is sufficient. Question is whether you will take the decision to start to ascent or even ditch your weights on time. Improving in water skills such as free diving will give you the confidence to take that decision when **** hits the fan.

Makes sense- very logical. I can also see Angelo's point about free diving-- I didn't consider the mental aspect.

 

[Gareth J]

Yes, I agree to this, if you are confident to swim up from 30m with your equipment, keeping the airway open is hardly a skill, so, freediving will surely prepare you for CESA or increase your safe ascent probability.
At the same time, I do not find redundant air supply discussion very relevant, pre-condition for CESA consideration is you already exhausted AAS or RAS options, I mean you can breath your pony empty and still having to do CESA anyway.
I remember reading that, in a lot of OOA related fatalities, weights were not ditched and I think this could be related to the fact that most of the divers consider buoyant emergency ascent as much more theoretical option. To consider CESA or BEA risky is a risk on its own imho.
With 30 meters OOA situation, you must be prepared to ditch the weights because you are more in uncontrolled emergency ascent territory. This is the reason I find practicing CESA from 30m unnecessary; you ascent as much as you can and you ditch the weights whenever you cannot take it anymore. So practicing cesa from 5-10 meters is sufficient. Question is whether you will take the decision to start to ascent or even ditch your weights on time. Improving in water skills such as free diving will give you the confidence to take that decision when **** hits the fan.

How do you do that?

If you bailout, you only have two decision, do you ascent immediately (alone), or do you ascend with your buddy as soon as you have attracted their attention (with minimal delay).

The only time I have seen a Pony breathed almost dry (empty)[1], is when there where multiple failures. A team of three lost two first stages.
Diver A had a free flow (first stage iced up), and went on to diver B's AAS, starting the ascent. Diver B had a free flow (first stage iced up with the additional gas through put). Diver B went on to his Pony. Diver A went on to diver C's AAS, diver C switched immediately to his pony. Diver A and C blew the stop and ended up on the surface, Diver B did a stop, almost exhausting the pony [2].
(Fresh water 2C, 35m, surface temperature below freezing, back in the 90's).
Thats when I decided that it was a really good idea to have a pony, if I was going to dive in the UK.

The size of the bailout is related to the depth and type of dive being undertaken.
My rule of thumb, below 20m a pony, shallow penetration a pony, below 35m a twinset. Recalculated if significant decompression or penetration is intended.

In the failure I witnessed, the pony's got them shallow enough to complete any required decompression and safety stops (Diver B).

I've been in the water a few times, when people have bailed out.
In fairness, even if you breath the pony dry, you are closer to the surface than you where when you initially bailed out. So your CESA is going to be easier - you might even have some methane power in the drysuit by then!

Gareth

[1] I have seen pony's breathed dry when they have been used as deco' cylinders.
[2] Funnily enough diver B was a paraplegic, an ex clearance diver who got blown up by a mine. Every one was freaking out that he was still under water (on the stop). When he surfaced he was as cool as a cucumber. Pointed out that with or without legs he was in no danger!