Rick, I think what they are trying to point out is, how do you know how much time you have left before you black-out, or become unconscious?
CESA - why? I'll never run low on air!
- Thread starter Rick Murchison
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dbulmer
Contributor
Rick - this is the bit of your first post I think is the most important because it teaches an important principle to the new diver. The same principle can be used in building underwater confidence for the new diver.
For example, in our club every diver at some stage has to take off their gear on the bottom, return to the surface and then go back down and put it on again. Clearly, the student has to be briefed to exhale and gives them the opportunity to learn about a little dive physics. Of course this is no news to you but the lesson does help to build confidence in the new diver and re-inforce an essential principle of diving.
However ... from there on the new diver is instructed to keep close to their buddy and multiple air shares take place (over time I hasten to add). The emphasis moves from learning a principle to good practice. This is where the advice Soggy posted comes in (from your post).
IMHO this first principle is a basic of diving which should be thoroughly understood but the student has to come to realise that keeping an eye out for your buddy and preventing issues from happening is a safer way of diving.
I think most of us trained by PADI at least should remember that even PADI put the CESA down the list of priorities and that there are better alternatives (as intimated by Soggy, LimeyX and PerroneFord in this thread.)
My worry about the CESA is that the newly trained forget that it's down the list.
A few years ago I was diving in Cancun. The dive was pleasant but there was quite a bit of surge and the DM leading made about 5 course corrections - into the current, across it,around it back into it etc. The dive was thumbed and the group started the ascent. I was diving with my dad and we had enough air but some less experienced divers (and I use the term loosely as my diving is poor) were running low on air. We got to about 20 foot and saw one diver signalling OOA.
A different DM handed over his octopus and the OOA diver refused it and headed up to the surface doing a CESA.
For me this was a violation of the training the OOA diver would have received ( I cannot conceive of any other reason) yet a simple air share did not appear to enter that person's head. I know this for a fact because I was the only one to ask him why he did it. Maybe I shouldn't have - he became aggressive and simply said because he was safe not doing it. (The last time I've ever questioned someone's diving BTW).
The samples you cite in your post sound too unrepresentative for me to comment - I can't argue with someone who's been there, done it and has forgotten more about diving than I've ever learned or will learn but I just thought I'd give you a different slant on things. I also disagree with PerroneFord - I think you can be in favour of CESA while at the same time being more in favour with a team approach to diving.
PerroneFord
Contributor
Rick,
I don't know what Limex will say, and I know you didin't ask me, but I believe I'd signal my buddy (3-5 seconds), thumb the dive (2 seconds) and start a rapid ascent with my buddy. This helps in a couple of ways.
1. If I CESA there is no guarantee I'll make it to the surface conscious
2. If I CESA there is no guarantee anyone from the boat will see or hear me
3. If I take a buddy along he can help me stay above water.
4. If I take a buddy, he can signal the boat
5. If I take a buddy, he can make sure I keep a reg in my mouth at all times even if I go unconscious.
6. If I take a buddy, he can give some clues as to my condition during the dive and perhaps assist the boat crew with figuring out what went wrong.
Of course, this course of action takes 10 more seconds than your plan. But honestly, I like it better.
I don't know what Limex will say, and I know you didin't ask me, but I believe I'd signal my buddy (3-5 seconds), thumb the dive (2 seconds) and start a rapid ascent with my buddy. This helps in a couple of ways.
1. If I CESA there is no guarantee I'll make it to the surface conscious
2. If I CESA there is no guarantee anyone from the boat will see or hear me
3. If I take a buddy along he can help me stay above water.
4. If I take a buddy, he can signal the boat
5. If I take a buddy, he can make sure I keep a reg in my mouth at all times even if I go unconscious.
6. If I take a buddy, he can give some clues as to my condition during the dive and perhaps assist the boat crew with figuring out what went wrong.
Of course, this course of action takes 10 more seconds than your plan. But honestly, I like it better.
PerroneFord
Contributor
dbulmer:
Could you give me something concrete to go on with this? Meaning, if a person is in favor of CESA (which is by definition a solo event), how can that person also be in favor of a team approach?
I'm not attacking you here, just genuinely curious how you view it.
OP
Precisely.jhbryaniv:
Only after the fact do you know.
So if you suffer a potentially incapacitating injury or feel sudden exteme pain coming on, what do you do? You may not have time to guess wrong. If the surface and help is within a minute or so I'm going for it, in a controlled way that assures no overexpansion injury in addition to whatever else is going on.
My properly trained and disciplined buddy will be right on my tail to help if I don't make it, right?
Rick
dbulmer
Contributor
PerroneFord
Sure.
What I was suggesting is that the CESA is a last ditch measure (not the only one by the defintions we've seen earlier in the thread) to perform when all else has failed. I was putting up a DSMB with my buddy in a quarry at 16 metres. My buddy tried to help me put up the DSMB (at this point very much a team exercise) but the line got caught round my fingers and I let go but then I stupidly grabbed the line again but it got wrapped round my thumb and fingers and this time I couldn't let go (skills deficiency yes but I was practicing that skill deficiency). Anyway I ended up in a fast ascent (not a planned CESA but I turned it into one by blowing out to try and arrest my ascent. Physics took over and it was futile .)
At that point I was practicing a team skill which ended up in me doing the mechanics of CESA. I never plan to dive solo - ever - but in this example I ended up that way. The reason I blew out continuosly was to try and regain buoyancy control but I failed and I ended up slowing my ascent but not to the point to be honest where I was in control.
A direct answer to your question is that the CESA is a building block that you should learn to grow out of. I just think CESA is a foundation skill like the fin pivot (I know you hate fin pivots) - you learn the lesson and then move on to learning about how to keep an eye on your buddy- looking for signs of discomfort, kit issues dive enjoyment etc. How do you do reg to snorkel exchange or long hose to backup without learning to blow bubbles?
Why bother learn to remove your drysuit or BC inflator feed if it plays up? - your buddy should be next to you but well separation can occur even with good buddies. Team diving for me means that you work together as a team helping each other out when necessary and enjoying the dive to its potential but does not rule out the odd blip when you do have to be prepared to sort out your own mess.
This is not a self sufficiency argument that you see some folks arguing about BTW It's more about making sure that basic skills are understood and fully mastered.
If you're worried about solo events - well again they can occur (they shouldn't but that's what practice and skill acquisition are all about) DSMB deployment for example. If someone let's go of the shotline on a wreck for example, (well me !) the other diver had to put a DSMB to tell the skipper that we'd moved off the wreck.
Hope that answers your question and I didn't take your view personally at all.
Now a question for you?
You are in a team of 2 - who puts up the DSMB and you can assume it's an 80 foot dive of 30 minutes on EAN32?. Typically over here it would be one person - if the DSMB is lost, another team member (your buddy) would put up the DSMB - a solo event as by and large the rule in the UK is for a member of a buddy team to put up the DSMB (and that includes divers of all agencies). It would be unusual for your buddy to help you unless entanglement took place ie entangled reg etc.
Sure.
What I was suggesting is that the CESA is a last ditch measure (not the only one by the defintions we've seen earlier in the thread) to perform when all else has failed. I was putting up a DSMB with my buddy in a quarry at 16 metres. My buddy tried to help me put up the DSMB (at this point very much a team exercise) but the line got caught round my fingers and I let go but then I stupidly grabbed the line again but it got wrapped round my thumb and fingers and this time I couldn't let go (skills deficiency yes but I was practicing that skill deficiency). Anyway I ended up in a fast ascent (not a planned CESA but I turned it into one by blowing out to try and arrest my ascent. Physics took over and it was futile .)
At that point I was practicing a team skill which ended up in me doing the mechanics of CESA. I never plan to dive solo - ever - but in this example I ended up that way. The reason I blew out continuosly was to try and regain buoyancy control but I failed and I ended up slowing my ascent but not to the point to be honest where I was in control.
A direct answer to your question is that the CESA is a building block that you should learn to grow out of. I just think CESA is a foundation skill like the fin pivot (I know you hate fin pivots) - you learn the lesson and then move on to learning about how to keep an eye on your buddy- looking for signs of discomfort, kit issues dive enjoyment etc. How do you do reg to snorkel exchange or long hose to backup without learning to blow bubbles?
Why bother learn to remove your drysuit or BC inflator feed if it plays up? - your buddy should be next to you but well separation can occur even with good buddies. Team diving for me means that you work together as a team helping each other out when necessary and enjoying the dive to its potential but does not rule out the odd blip when you do have to be prepared to sort out your own mess.
This is not a self sufficiency argument that you see some folks arguing about BTW It's more about making sure that basic skills are understood and fully mastered.
If you're worried about solo events - well again they can occur (they shouldn't but that's what practice and skill acquisition are all about) DSMB deployment for example. If someone let's go of the shotline on a wreck for example, (well me !) the other diver had to put a DSMB to tell the skipper that we'd moved off the wreck.
Hope that answers your question and I didn't take your view personally at all.
Now a question for you?
You are in a team of 2 - who puts up the DSMB and you can assume it's an 80 foot dive of 30 minutes on EAN32?. Typically over here it would be one person - if the DSMB is lost, another team member (your buddy) would put up the DSMB - a solo event as by and large the rule in the UK is for a member of a buddy team to put up the DSMB (and that includes divers of all agencies). It would be unusual for your buddy to help you unless entanglement took place ie entangled reg etc.
PerroneFord
Contributor
Thanks Dbulmer. Nice explanation.
To answer your question:
The designated person puts up the SMB. That is decided before the dive. As for the mechanics, if it's dark, the diver shooting the bag puts his light away, and the other diver shines his light. The diver not shooting the bag, holds depth to act as a reference for the diver shooting the bag. The diver not shooting the bag looks above to make sure they path is clear. The diver not shooting the bag can lend assistance in case something goes wrong. VERY much a team excercise.
To answer your question:
The designated person puts up the SMB. That is decided before the dive. As for the mechanics, if it's dark, the diver shooting the bag puts his light away, and the other diver shines his light. The diver not shooting the bag, holds depth to act as a reference for the diver shooting the bag. The diver not shooting the bag looks above to make sure they path is clear. The diver not shooting the bag can lend assistance in case something goes wrong. VERY much a team excercise.
fisherdvm
Contributor
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It seems to me, with alot of respect and admiration, that the folks who say you should not ever, ever be too far from your buddy, or run out of gas, are folks trained by DIR.
I wished my instant buddies have the same mentality. However, a large number of recreational divers don't practice good air management skill. As example of my nephew I dove with a month ago, I drilled in his brain the need to ascend from his dive at about 1000 psi. Fine - while he was with me. He ascended with at least 600 psi on our 2 dives. Nevermind that he shot past the 15 ft safety stop and I had to drag him back down.
On the 5th dive, being over confidant, or what ever (3rd dive of the day - meaning he is pretty close to his NDL), he went up with 100 psi, and tried to skip the 15 ft safety stop..... I had a long talk with him the day before about how he should give up diving, or practice his skills with a mentor. He didn't like to hear it at all....
When he told me about his going up with a nearly empty tank.... He said it was the DM fault.....
It is this kind of mentality that we need to teach CESA. I had told my sister who dove with him on the 5th dive that we got to watch over him like a hawk, because he is too cocky and too incompetent... But despite my warnings - we still had a close to OOA situation.
I wished my instant buddies have the same mentality. However, a large number of recreational divers don't practice good air management skill. As example of my nephew I dove with a month ago, I drilled in his brain the need to ascend from his dive at about 1000 psi. Fine - while he was with me. He ascended with at least 600 psi on our 2 dives. Nevermind that he shot past the 15 ft safety stop and I had to drag him back down.
On the 5th dive, being over confidant, or what ever (3rd dive of the day - meaning he is pretty close to his NDL), he went up with 100 psi, and tried to skip the 15 ft safety stop..... I had a long talk with him the day before about how he should give up diving, or practice his skills with a mentor. He didn't like to hear it at all....
When he told me about his going up with a nearly empty tank.... He said it was the DM fault.....
It is this kind of mentality that we need to teach CESA. I had told my sister who dove with him on the 5th dive that we got to watch over him like a hawk, because he is too cocky and too incompetent... But despite my warnings - we still had a close to OOA situation.
dbulmer
Contributor
PerroneFord,
That's how I (try) to do it but it takes practice - for example the tide is running a little bit. You keep in front of the diver and watch him but at the same time you don't want to get too close - stay away from that line etc. Stick in poor vis and you really have a test of buoyancy control ie not too close but close enough to assist. It's hard and at that point losing your buddy can happen so the other sucker might end up having to put up another DSMB because he's lost his buddy, needs to ascend because of lost diver protocol , takes a minute to take out the spool from the pocket , another minute to put up the DSMB so you end up with 2 DSMbs (2 solo events) drifting a bit away at the surface.
Happened to me a week or so - I told you I was crap !
Forgot the other minute to look around 360 degrees up and down.
That's how I (try) to do it but it takes practice - for example the tide is running a little bit. You keep in front of the diver and watch him but at the same time you don't want to get too close - stay away from that line etc. Stick in poor vis and you really have a test of buoyancy control ie not too close but close enough to assist. It's hard and at that point losing your buddy can happen so the other sucker might end up having to put up another DSMB because he's lost his buddy, needs to ascend because of lost diver protocol , takes a minute to take out the spool from the pocket , another minute to put up the DSMB so you end up with 2 DSMbs (2 solo events) drifting a bit away at the surface.
Happened to me a week or so - I told you I was crap !
Forgot the other minute to look around 360 degrees up and down.
Lehmann108
Guest
Steve R:Good thing we now have pressure gauges...not a reason.
You're right here, purposely putting yourself behind the 8-ball of gas management requires learning and adhering to gas managment principles, not learning cesa. Again not a valid reason for cesa.
No, it illustrates the reason why proper team diving is essential for successful dives when little things go wrong from time to time, instead of solo diving. Doing an 80ft cesa would probably work well a huge majority of the time if that's your bag, but speaking only for myself in our team environment, I'll stick with a controlled ascent on the long hose, which is clearly a safer method.
45 years of evidently successful solo diving to upwards of 200ft certainly is impressive, and maybe shows just how often gear doesn't break down or cause issues, but it's not the type of diving I'd be teaching or touting as safe. Why you haven't been laughed off of scooby-board only shows the level of understanding most people have with respect to responsible diving around here.
No offense Rick, but maybe sitting there at 1 ATA typing your post sounds like you'd be able to work through most of those problems via a successful cesa may sound logical, but in reality is pretty much laughable bud.
I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.
But hey, let's see how many times we can flog the same pony....have fun kids.
I swear, if some of you would spend as much time perfecting proper individual and team skills as you do on BS cesa arguments, you'd be way further ahead.
Wow! I'm a newbie, but sometimes the visibilty on scubaboard is so good you can see right through some posters. :11:
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