Collapse of the "Buddy System"

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Do you really do deco dives with someone who's so incompetent that they can't monitor their own air?

Add deco dives to the list of things I have no interest in. The fact that you "do it with each other every day" is the specious argument. Most of the discussion has not been about deco teams that dive together exclusively or almost every day.

And as far as "confusing personal choices with systemic limitations", if I'm not mistaken it was you that confused sensible choices vs taking increased risk with systemic limitations. There are limitations to any system. Accepting and living within the limitation is a personal choice. The "buddy system" has some (what I consider, quite severe) limitations that I personally choose not to accept and to be limited by. Different strokes ... Not saying solo is best, only that it's best for me.
 
Add deco dives to the list of things I have no interest in. The fact that you "do it with each other every day" is the specious argument. Most of the discussion has not been about deco teams that dive together exclusively or almost every day.
I wasn't referring to deco dives ... I was referring to communication, which is something I can only assume you also practice every day unless you're a hermit living on a mountain top somewhere. And you're the one who brought up deco ... I was just pointing out that if you're going into deco on a dive, you shouldn't be doing it with someone who is so unskilled that you have to make yourself responsible for checking their air.

A lot of you are making the assumption that anyone you might buddy up with will be so incompetent that you'd have to baby-sit them the whole dive. If that's the case, I'd have to say you're doing a really poor job of choosing dive buddies ... which would explain why you're so down on the buddy system.

And as far as "confusing personal choices with systemic limitations", if I'm not mistaken it was you that confused sensible choices vs taking increased risk with systemic limitations. There are limitations to any system. Accepting and living within the limitation is a personal choice. The "buddy system" has some (what I consider, quite severe) limitations that I personally choose not to accept and to be limited by. Different strokes ... Not saying solo is best, only that it's best for me.

I'm sure that it is ... and therefore it's a valid choice for you to make. I'm not questioning your choices ... I'm questioning the legitimacy of the reasons you're posting for making them. The impression those reasons convey is that you have never experienced diving with a competent dive buddy before ... which says less about the system than it does about the way you've implemented it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
My group dive closely. I also glue a small mirror onto my gloves so that I can check my rear buddies more frequently. Quite helpful without interrupting my movement. My coach liked the idea so he made a bigger version for himself. I also gave one to a buddy.

Just the little things to enhance the system...

tasava7e.jpg


Sent from Tapatalk mobile
 
The division of the merits of buddy (B) vs. solo (S) diving into the categories of a system (SYS) and its implementation (IMP) is interesting. I'd like to analyze some of the arguments within the framework of these categories. We need to level the playing field. To eliminate all the IMP level problems with B diving we'll assume you and your buddy are equal and do all the required things needed to implement a fully functional buddy team. Looking at the dive styles from a system POV I hope to eliminate some of the emotional bias that distorts an objective viewpoint. Most of what I present here is not new; Others in this thread have already said it.

From S diving POV:

Let's take the issue of an alternate air supply. Some have argued that this is an advantage for S diving over B. To level the playing field let's give each diver in the B pair their own alternate air souces. [You may object, saying this isn't done in the real world. But, were evaluating based on the system and not on what actually happens which is IMP.] What appears to be an advantage in S disappears.

Solitude. Another advantage in S diving. Can we add solitude to B diving. No, by definition B diving requires communication between the B pair. Solitude remains an advantage.

Less bandwidth [SIC] equals less effort over B diving therefore an advantage. So we're on the same page [mental] bandwidth is the amount and effort of thinking about your buddy which includes but is not limited to communication, position, welfare, etc. Obviously, it remains an advantage but a trivial one. Think of all the small tasks you do every day from the time you wake up in the morning to the time you arrive at work (get out of bed, walk to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, brush your teeth, wash your face, get dressed, eat breakfast, etc. I haven't even got to driving to work yet.) This is a at least a 1000 times more than what you do with your buddy underwater. If you can't manage the relatively few underwater tasks, how in the world do you get through your day?

From B diving POV:

Additional awareness. An advantage for B diving? Can we add someone to S. No, based on the definition of S diving. B diving retains advantage.

Additional brain. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

Additional hands. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

All the problems associated with the B system can be corrected by correct implementation. For example, a common complaint is your buddy swims away leaving you alone. This is solved by reinstructing your buddy or getting a new buddy. The same approach can be used to solve virtually all the buddy problems.

Where does this leave us? As a system buddy diving is clearly superior and this is why virtually every source I've read favors B diving over S diving. The dive plan sometimes dictates the choice of dive system. Photographers might prefer S over B. Cave divers will prefer B over S.
 
The division of the merits of buddy (B) vs. solo (S) diving into the categories of a system (SYS) and its implementation (IMP) is interesting. I'd like to analyze some of the arguments within the framework of these categories. We need to level the playing field. To eliminate all the IMP level problems with B diving we'll assume you and your buddy are equal and do all the required things needed to implement a fully functional buddy team. Looking at the dive styles from a system POV I hope to eliminate some of the emotional bias that distorts an objective viewpoint. Most of what I present here is not new; Others in this thread have already said it.

From S diving POV:

Let's take the issue of an alternate air supply. Some have argued that this is an advantage for S diving over B. To level the playing field let's give each diver in the B pair their own alternate air souces. [You may object, saying this isn't done in the real world. But, were evaluating based on the system and not on what actually happens which is IMP.] What appears to be an advantage in S disappears.

Solitude. Another advantage in S diving. Can we add solitude to B diving. No, by definition B diving requires communication between the B pair. Solitude remains an advantage.

Less bandwidth [SIC] equals less effort over B diving therefore an advantage. So we're on the same page [mental] bandwidth is the amount and effort of thinking about your buddy which includes but is not limited to communication, position, welfare, etc. Obviously, it remains an advantage but a trivial one. Think of all the small tasks you do every day from the time you wake up in the morning to the time you arrive at work (get out of bed, walk to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, brush your teeth, wash your face, get dressed, eat breakfast, etc. I haven't even got to driving to work yet.) This is a at least a 1000 times more than what you do with your buddy underwater. If you can't manage the relatively few underwater tasks, how in the world do you get through your day?

From B diving POV:

Additional awareness. An advantage for B diving? Can we add someone to S. No, based on the definition of S diving. B diving retains advantage.

Additional brain. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

Additional hands. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

All the problems associated with the B system can be corrected by correct implementation. For example, a common complaint is your buddy swims away leaving you alone. This is solved by reinstructing your buddy or getting a new buddy. The same approach can be used to solve virtually all the buddy problems.

Where does this leave us? As a system buddy diving is clearly superior. The dive plan sometimes dictates the choice of dive system. Photographers might prefer S over B. Cave divers will prefer B over S.


Well your conclusion that B is better than S, is, IMHO a BS POV, but when the SHTF, and the diver is thinking WTF, I would rather rely on my BOB (bail out bottle) than a SOB (Same Ocean Buddy) and I think that is IMP.:D:D:rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3:
 
The division of the merits of buddy (B) vs. solo (S) diving into the categories of a system (SYS) and its implementation (IMP) is interesting. . .

Actually it isn't.

I really hope this isn't a reflection on your day job. Why don't you do a failure analysis and let us know what you come up with (oh and buddy teams don't carry redundant alternate air). Not in the any standard I've heard of
 
Having a second, completely independent mind with attached body is hardly an unqualified advantage. Indeed, the inherent unpredictability of others is my main reason for happily diving with whomever for easy dives and really only wanting to solo the more complex stuff.
 
dumpsterDiver:
Well your conclusion that B is better than S, is, IMHO a BS POV, but when the SHTF, and the diver is thinking WTF, I would rather rely on my BOB (bail out bottle) than a SOB (Same Ocean Buddy) and I think that is IMP

In the real world unfortunately we have to deal with the implementation issues. Your argument is a strawman. Of course a highly trained, committed, focused, solo diver will always be better than the vast majority of SOB minimally trained, minimally committed, OW/AOW divers.

moderator_catch_snarky[CURRENT_POST,off)
And when you have that mild stroke who's going to haul up your sorry *ss from the bottom of the ocean? moderator_catch_snarky[CURRENT_POST,on)


---------- Post added October 10th, 2014 at 07:54 PM ----------

johnN:
I really hope this isn't a reflection on your day job. Why don't you do a failure analysis and let us know what you come up with (oh and buddy teams don't carry redundant alternate air). Not in the any standard I've heard of

Having a second, completely independent mind with attached body is hardly an unqualified advantage. Indeed, the inherent unpredictability of others is my main reason for happily diving with whomever for easy dives and really only wanting to solo the more complex stuff.

Your opinions fall into implentation not system.
 
. And when you have that mild stroke who's going to haul up your sorry *ss from the bottom of the ocean?

---------- Post added October 10th, 2014 at 07:54 PM ----------





Your opinions fall into implentation not system.

So this is your day job? I'm really not impressed.

How about a nice old-fashioned failure analysis? Or is that outside your skill set?
 
Your opinions fall into implentation not system.

False. Unpredictable irrationality is a factor of any system involving other human beings, regardless of implementation (i.e., communications and skills/training). Now, they have the exact same objection to myself and there's always the potential that I have misjudged my own threshold for error/panic and will die without a buddy. But that doesn't change the fact that introducing a second or third independent actor into the system adds to its potential instability.
 

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