Comparing Doppler's class and GUE's DIRf class...

[deepdiver5by5]

Doppler
Where will you be holding this course and does it have class and pool and open water or is it just open water?
Sorry to the rest of the folks are but I am not familiar with the Fundementals course, so as was stated above I will now goe to the GUE site and see what it is about.
Dan, is there not a DIR instructor in SW ontario? Had heard this last year.
Deepdiver5by5

 

[Doppler]

Dan MacKay once bubbled...


SNIPPED

As for Doppler's course I (and I have to agree with the Tick) applaud his efforts. I know Doppler and while we are not bosom buddies we have shared some thoughts over coffee and the phone upon occasion. As well as I have not seen the content of his course or how it was presented then I really do not have any opinion other than if I ever have the opportunity I am sure that Doppler would have no quams in letting me audit his course and then I might have an opinion.

SNIPPED

Doppler keep up the good work at least one TDI instructor in the world is trying to make a difference.

Safe dives,

Dan

Couple of things might be worth while mentioning here...

First of all, I am on record -- on this board -- endorsing the DIRf course and Dan as an instructor... they are both good items. I'm not sure why that might surprise anyone, but in case it does, let me explain.

Look, Dan and I are competitors. He and I are both going after the same dollar -- and that would be the same even if we both taught for the same agency -- however, he and I share similar attitudes towards that competition... not the only attitude we share by the way. Neither Dan nor I believe in negative marketing or feel that it's necessary to engage in pissing contests to win business. Frankly, I would rather loose business to Dan than to several instructors currently teaching in the Lake Ontario / St. Lawrence corridor because the outcome will be a well-trained diver. I think he feels the same way about me...

For the record, I think the GUE program is extremely well thought out. There are a couple of things from the standpoint of business that trouble me, but this is not the forum to discuss business issues like branding, management structure, corporate philosophy, and logistics.

I have never taken a GUE class, but JJ was my cave instructor and during that time together and several chance meetings afterwards, he impressed me greatly. And of course I am very aware of the DIRf course. It "sounded" like JJ to me. It's a great idea... and was ahead of its time.

Now about my Basic Techniques and Essential Skills course specifically. It is a course about diving... like all other course about diving, it has a beginning, a middle and an end. I didn't invent that... maybe the YMCA did in the late 50s.

Calling it a DIRf knock-off is -- in my opinion -- an insult. Knock-off indicates a cheap, diluted copy. It's not a copy, nothing is diluted and it's not cheap. However, the basic idea is the same and intended outcome is similar. It has to be... it's teaching things that divers need to do. Let's get the facts right here... neither JJ nor GUE invented frog kicks, helicopter turns, trim, buoyancy, streamlined gear configuration, team-based dive planning and execution, on-the-fly decompression planning, gas management, the long hose, a simple webbing harness or video feedback as a training tool.

I've gone about structuring the course and working out its delivery in a way that makes sense to me and make sense for safety, enjoyment, marketing, business, et al. and as such I stand by it as a worthwhile and meaningful addition to the diving community.

Dan, you know you're welcome to audit the class, fieldwork and inwater program of my Basic Techniques and Essential Skills program anytime you want, and I apologize for not posting a link to the course outline, but it did not and still does not seem appropriate to do so here. If anyone wants it, please PM me with an outside email address. It will also be available on my website (just as soon as I get around to putting in the link!)

Steve

 

[Doppler]

Apologies... but it was early this morning when I penned the missive above and I forgot a couple of things I believe to be important. Things that I need to say:



My first Martial Arts teacher -- who perhaps has had the greatest and most lasting influence on my life since it was under his guidance that I became a Buddhist -- told me: "Beginners look high and walk low." This means that when we start out doing something we have lofty goals but tend to be lazy with things like practice. I've been teaching "technical" diving for almost ten years and I am still a beginner at it... but I understand the value of constant practice and suggest we all consider doing more of it. You will not advance and grow without practice.

The second lesson I learned from my Master was this: "Please only ask me questions to which I know the answers." Cute, eh? What he meant was, "I'm not perfect. Nor are you. Live with it!"

So, if you think my course is missing something or needs work, chances are you're right. But don't tell me that something else out there is perfect. I will not believe you because I know you are wrong. (Read Dan's message again. At no point does he suggest his is the only way... Dan knows what works for him and believes in it, and he'll share it... but he will never admit to telling you it's perfect. I do know him that well.)

And there seems to be an undertone of anger in some of the postings here... Anger will close your eyes to the opportunity to learn from the experience of others. Anger has its roots in misunderstanding. Anger closes the mind. LIGHTEN UP!

I've been diving long enough to remember when all we talked about was what we saw -- and caught -- while diving! JEEEEZZZZ.

Take care folks

 

[wb416]

I have had classes with Dan and Steve... both are instructors I have allot of respect for.

Their responses and attitude in this thread provide the example that so-many-others need to consider before mindlessly & emotionally jumping into encampments and firing shots at each other.

bob

 

[Bubble Boy]

The Tick once bubbled...
I had you confused with Bubbleboy who has long since disappeared since his cover and motivation was blown.

No I have not disappeared but rather busy diving and enjoying the summer holidays. My motivation is and always has been safety. I will continue to train people to be safe. You obviously thought Puffer was me because of his obvious concerns with Health and Safety. I am not part owner of any dive shop nor will I ever be. I will however only get air that meets at a minimum the CSA Z-180.1-00 and Z-275.2 standards.

As for Doppler's course I would like to remind you of the saying "a responsible diver is always training". I think that Dan M and Steve L are doing a great job and training and promoting safe diving regardless of agency affiliations. They are both great instructors

Kudos to Dan and Steve for promoting safe diving.

 

[barb]

...

At one time I also considered the DIRF course (in fact I was actively seeking to take it). However, the more I read on this Scubaboard the more uncomfortable I became. Not with WHAT was being taught but the impression of HOW it was being taught.
I got the impression (a very strong impression) that a "big stick" approach is being used to teach divers.
I want a teacher that teaches with empathy as well as knowlege, experience and understanding.
As I listened and watched... I felt that Steve was that teacher for me. I have never met Dan and have'nt read his posts here so I can't say that he could'nt be a similar teacher???
I guess what I'm really saying is that it's not ALL about What your teaching. You must include HOW you teach it.
I have children, and know from experience that they learn far more when I'm gentle and affirmative with them. If I try the "big stick" approach they dig in their heals and that's the end of it.

I'm an eager diver - as I bet most of you out there are - and want to learn new and better skills. I want to be a better diver.
I don't, however, want to be assimilated and made to feel like a Hopeless Bag of Hammers.

I want to walk gentiley and carry a long hose for air sharing.

 

[Dan MacKay]

barb once bubbled...
...

At one time I also considered the DIRF course (in fact I was actively seeking to take it). However, the more I read on this Scubaboard the more uncomfortable I became. Not with WHAT was being taught but the impression of HOW it was being taught.

Hi Barb,

You bring up a very valid point. One thing that I have to ask however is where did you get this impression from? The only negative comments that I have heard about this course (and GUE training in general for that matter) has come from folks that have never taken a GUE course.

I can only assume that because we do have requirements that we do not bend, such as fitness, teaching only non-smokers and a DIR equimentment set up that we are ****'s all dressed in black. The fitness and non-smoking requirement should be obvious. But to tell you the truth the requirement for the right equipment is more for my benefit than yours. Proper equipment eliminates 80% of problems of bouyancy and trim when you are properly weighted and configured. This gives me the opportunity to focus almost 100% of my time on helping you improve the critical issues of buoyancy control, trim, kicks and multi-tasking. As I tell all my students buoyancy control has to become like breathing for all divers. You must aspire to get to the point where you do not have to think about it but it is automatic.

These issues aside is also the idea of pass/fail. I do not particulary like this distinction but it is a necessary evil. I will be honest with you, I personally have a horrendous pass/fail ratio. I believe that my name on a C card means something. Specifically when I sign off a Fundamentals student I am saying that within 25 dives if this diver practices the techniques that they have be taught then then may be ready for a Tech I or Cave I course. On the other hand I do not think that I have had a student yet that thinks they have failed. They have discovered a lot of things. Specifically what their skills are now, what they should be like and a road map of how to train to get to where they want to be.

The Fundamentals is not about technical diving but one of the interesting things to note is that all the fundamentals skills and techniques that are taught on this course are second nature to world class divers everywhere.

Safe dives,

Dan

 

[barb]

..I have'nt taken a DIRF course. I wanted to but was concerned about the teaching style of the instructors.
The course material sounded fabulous to me and definitely pass/fail is not what its about to me .... I want to improve my skills and learn new skills (be a safer/better diver).... I'm not looking for another card to carry.
I have'nt watched an actual DIRF instructor in action so I admit my bias comes from the attitudes I've seen displayed through postings on Scubaboard.
This is probably unfair on my part, however, I felt I could learn these same skills through Doppler without the undesireable extras.

Dan, maybe I could audit your upcoming class in Ottawa and then I'd know if my concern was warranted???

Barb

 

[sparky30]

Doppler once bubbled...


Although it is not in the guidelines -- which of course I wrote -- I also like to see people with doubles prove to me that they can lift and manage them when they are on their back.

If I had my druthers, I'd love to run VO2Max tests but that's a bit over the top!

I agree.. I've seen a lot of people who don't dive their doubles.. their doubles dive them I weighed mine, and with a full airfill and my transpac attached they came to 135lbs.. not exactly light.. When I started diving with doubles last year I wish there was a course that explained propper rigging and double tank handling without being a tech course... I just use them for redundancy and extra bottom time on shallower wrecks... Filled with Nitrox of course
As long as I'm wearing a wetsuit shutdown drills are a breeze.. when I got the drusuit and dry gloves on things get a bit trickier.. but still managable..

 

[MikeFerrara]

Doppler,

I'd like to talk with you offline about your class. I've been working on an outline for a similar course for a couple years now but I'm not sure if I could get it approved by either agency that I teach through.

As foe the rest of this conversation.....

I think more instructors should be offering such classes. I also think that if more instructors were doing their job in the regular classes they wouldn't be needed. I also have divers show up for an advanced class or a Advanced Nitroc class and they aren't ready.

At MHK's invitation I did audit part of a DIRF course. I would have at in on more but I was teaching a class at the same time so time was limited. I have nothing but good things to say about what I saw. What I saw of the course was very well thought out and the skill with which MHK and BCS presented the material was clear and impressive. When there's another one in the area I'll audit the entire thing if MHK's invitation still stands.

Just as a good diver continues to learn so does a good instructor. I try to learn what I can from other instructors regardless of agency affiliation. You don't have to do something first to do it well.

Another thing I've noticed and often commented on here is the fact that new divers or even long time divers who are still bottom walkers are really amazed when they see the GUE instructors in the water. They seem to think that skill in the water is the sole venue of GUR/DIR trained divers. JJ was good before there was a GUE. The guys he learned from were good and so are the other divers who learned from them and the one's they've gone on to teach. The point is that if the only divers you've seen who are good in the water are GUE trained divers then you need to get out more.