Course frustration

[Littlerayray]

I took my OW aow course and I was talking to a buddy who took a course through a different company (the big one) rhymes with daddy.
He asked how much I paid for my drysuit course and my photography course and lift bag course and so on and so on.
I told him with a puzzled face that my instructor walked me through the steps and we went and worked on it the one day.
And that he does this for anyone .
He was shocked and dejected because he felt like he got robbed not only of his money but his time as well
Am I wrong in my thinking or am I a rogue diver who needs to be stopped

 

[northernone]

There's a few models of dive training.

If I guess who taught you, you're learning from one of the unsung legends of effective teaching. Mentorship is a wonderful model, it just isn't financially viable for many experts.

That said, if someone else hires an instructor for (let's say) 4 days to have him teach the finer details of 1. Photography 2. Drysuit diving 3. Lift bags/ salvage. And another diver spends 20 days in bootcamp learning the same TOPICS, all things being equal, they won't have the same skills or depth of knowledge. The guy who spent 20 days wasn't "ripped off".

If the instructor is incompetent and ignorant, it's just bad value no matter if it was a day or 100 days.

It isn't about buying a card nor is it about the fastest/cheapest way to be "trained", it's about the progress of becoming a competent diver. That can't be rushed.

If you've not been trained in how to dive a drysuit, you're a diver in a bag. That's regardless of if you have a card or took an hour primer or a 4 day course.

Cameron

 

[Littlerayray]

If you've not been trained in how to dive a drysuit, you're a dive in a bag.

Cameron

Call me ignorant but I need clarification on what a dive in a bag is.
And you are right i got taught by one of the greatest cold water pioneer /experts who at the age of 78 still puts in over 180 dives in our short summers
And all I'm saying is that I feel like people are getting cheated for something that should be offered no questions asked

 

[Patoux01]

*** I will assume everybody is competent ***
Let's take the following situations...

- One takes a 2 days AOW course through agency X (is it 2 days?), followed by a 1 day drysuit and 2 days photography specialty. He walks off with 3 cards
- One takes a 2 days AOW course through agency Y and gets told "that's it, you now know how to use a drysuit and take nice pictures etc".
- One takes a 5 days "AOW" course through agency Z, during which he has 1 day of using a drysuit and 2 about photography. He walks off with 1 card.

Now I think that it is safe to say that second diver does not know what he thinks he does, or the others would be incompetent. It is also safe to say that the first and third have pretty much the same level, and likely have paid a very similar price (give or take 50$), because what is costly is not the cards, it's the time.

So yes, he got robbed of his time if his instructors were incompetent, but no, you're delusional if his instructor(s) were actually competent people.

It's very similar to saying "Oh agency X does a cave course in 5 days, why should I take agency Y in 20 days if I get out at same level?". The thing is exactly that, you don't get the same level.



Now if you're saying "yeah I paid AOW but have been diving with the instructor for free afterwards and he taught me this and that", it's a very different thing.

 

[Littlerayray]

I am a hands on learner and all the specialty courses bug me especially when people think you need a card to do certain things
DO I recommend to someone who has never worn a drysuit to order one and go diving oh he'll no the poor slub will most likely end up with his feet full of air and be upside down or worse yet have a flood and not know how to save themselves.
But to dive and learn tips and tricks and tricks from a competent diver is another story.
It's just that I feel like the big company's make it seem like a bigger deal then what it actually is

 

[northernone]

Call me ignorant but I need clarification on what a dive in a bag is.
And you are right i got taught by one of the greatest cold water pioneer /experts who at the age of 78 still puts in over 180 dives in our short summers
And all I'm saying is that I feel like people are getting cheated for something that should be offered no questions asked

To be candid, there's no better value anywhere I've been than the man you have the honor of learning from. That said, just because you're paying his asking price doesn't mean it's the fair market rate for the training he provides.

What I mean is the only difference between him and the instructors who charge 400-500$ daily is the rate they charge. If you'd paid your instructor what he's worth, you'd think your buddy got the deal of a century for his drysuit course. It probably made his instructor minimum wage after tax, insurance and fees.

That said, being trained by someone "great" doesn't make us great. I took voice lessons (shoot me) from a nationally recognized coach... Who eventually quit and said she felt bad for taking my money. The first student she gave up on in her 40 year career. Two days on the ice with Gretzky doesn't make me a pro hockey player. Just because it looks easy when he does it, and I can do it in practice, doesn't mean I can score when it really counts.

Diving in a bag is what someone who doesn't know how to dive a drysuit dives it when they haven't been adequately taught how to use it. A drysuit is a stupidly simple piece of equipment. And the basic skills can be explained in 10 minutes, including in water demonstrations. However, it can also be taught over many dives and if you're paying an instructor to mentor (instead of one who dives with students for free) there's a lot to know about diving it well.

Same goes for lift bags. Your instructor could take a week of diving all day every day, and he'd still not exhaust all the things he knows about lift bags and at the end of the week, you'd still have more to learn. The 10 minute kindergarten version doesn't begin to touch everything you need to know if you're intending to safely lift something.

Stay humble,
Cameron

 

[Patoux01]

They don't. They just provide:
1) An easy way to find someone
2) A guarantee that what the person teaches is "safe"

If you happen to find a dive buddy that is happy to teach you for free, that's a different story, but I would say it takes a bit more than "tips and tricks" to properly use and choose a drysuit, or use a lift bag etc.

In my experience, most that said that about drysuits actually had no idea about them and how to use them. Same thing with lift bags, I heard that from divers that had used them to raise objects of maybe 20kg. When people are part of Ghost Fishing dives, I suspect they have taken more than "tips and tricks" and actually spent quite a while to learn to do it properly, but I might be wrong.

 

[Littlerayray]

I will be the first to admit I don't know everything and the first to say I'm not an expert I will also be the first to say i no im not comfortanle doing that or ask how do you do that.
Being humble I've learned a lot I've also still got a lot to learn
I was just voicing a frustration and wondering if I was crazy or not the jury just came back and the judge aka my wife says I'm crazy

 

[lv2dive]

Little ray ray,

It's great when people such as yourself can find mentors but it's not the norm. Those courses exist for a reason. If someone learned to dive in a wetsuit and / or didn't master a DSMB, the courses are an opportunity to learn those skills. Dive professionals who are making money in the dive industry exclusively have to earn a living, don't they?

I will be the first to admit I don't know everything and the first to say I'm not an expert I will also be the first to say i no im not comfortanle doing that or ask how do you do that.
Being humble I've learned a lot I've also still got a lot to learn
I was just voicing a frustration and wondering if I was crazy or not the jury just came back and the judge aka my wife says I'm crazy

 

[Littlerayray]

Little ray ray,

It's great when people such as yourself can find mentors but it's not the norm. Those courses exist for a reason. If someone learned to dive in a wetsuit and / or didn't master a DSMB, the courses are an opportunity to learn those skills. Dive professionals who are making money in the dive industry exclusively have to earn a living, don't they?

Ok I see your point