CPR for older people?

[Crass3000]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread was prompted by a discussion elsewhere about a news report in which it is claimed that performing CPR on elderly people may do more harm than good:
http://healthland.time.com/2013/03/04/listen-nurse-refuses-to-give-cpr-to-dying-woman/
References to the discussion outside SB have been redacted and posts have been edited accordingly

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I was taught in classes (just Rescue and prerequisite) to give CPR no matter if I am going to break a persons ribs. I guess this question is mostly about rescuing older diver's. I'm not sure where anyone draws the line as "older" but I figured that if anybody was out diving they probably would want CPR. What do you think? Is there an age or appearance of the person where you would not perform CPR because you think you would do more harm if they were brought back? Seems like a HARD, ethical question to answer and think about but, god forbid, I am in this situation I wanted to know what other people thought. What do you think? Would CPR do more harm because it would inevitably damage their organs? I don't want to leave somebody sit there and give no help. It would kill me inside to do that.

And Nemrod I carry a barrier too. I would not feel good about not giving CPR.

 

[Nemrod]

I was taught in classes (just Rescue and prerequisite) to give CPR no matter if I am going to break a persons ribs. I guess this question is mostly about rescuing older diver's. I'm not sure where anyone draws the line as "older" but I figured that if anybody was out diving they probably would want CPR. What do you think? Is there an age or appearance of the person where you would not perform CPR because you think you would do more harm if they were brought back? Seems like a HARD, ethical question to answer and think about but, god forbid, I am in this situation I wanted to know what other people thought. What do you think? Would CPR do more harm because it would inevitably damage their organs? I don't want to leave somebody sit there and give no help. It would kill me inside to do that.

I am a First Responder and used to teach Red Cross First Aid etc. I would certainly give CPR to anybody until the medical personnel took over or until I expired. It is not up to me to decide who is too old, too sick or too stupid to live. I would be more likely to give CPR to an old person than a tated up younger person with needle tracks. But the fact is, I carry a barrier etc and would render first aid/CPR to anybody.

What is old anyways? I will leave the sands of time to God.

As for as living being better than death, that is the age old question, get back with me on that when you are dead, let me know. I would be curious.

When I had my "accident" I recall an out of body experience, I will not go into it here.

N

 

[Nwcid]

I was taught in classes to give CPR no matter if I am going to break a persons ribs.

You WILL break rib on ANYONE you are properly doing CPR on, that is just part of it.

guess this question is mostly about rescuing older diver's. I'm not sure where anyone draws the line as "older" but I figured that if anybody was out diving they probably would want CPR. What do you think?

Age has less to do with outcome then past medical history, cause of them to be in arrest, how quickly proper potential life saving care is started and how quickly they can get to the proper advanced care. Now I do not have the numbers and I am sure you can find them somewhere but even in a 911 or hospital setting mortality is high. Even for the people that survive very few (% wise) come out without some kind long term problem. You have to keep in mind that when you start CPR on someone they are effectively dead and you can not make that worse.

Is there an age or appearance of the person where you would not perform CPR because you think you would do more harm if they were brought back? Seems like a HARD, ethical question to answer and think about but, god forbid, I am in this situation I wanted to know what other people thought. What do you think? Would CPR do more harm because it would inevitably damage their organs? I don't want to leave somebody sit there and give no help. It would kill me inside to do that.

If you are in the position where you need to perform CPR and that is what you want to do in the situation go for it. Do NOT use age or possible outcome as a reason not to do CPR.

I have been in EMS for over 15 years now. Most of that has been as a Paramedic and the last decade of that includes teaching.

Here is a link for you about "The truth about CPR" http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Truth+about+CPR&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 I think you will enjoy reading some of it based on your question. CPR is NEVER the wrong answer if you don't have a very good reason not to. There are times in the field I do not think CPR is the right choice yet I have to do it based on law. In the daily life setting things are very different and you do not have the advantage of the PT history (that we usually get some of) or the equipment we have.

 

[tc]

I'm an EMT and Diver Medic, I'm also a crew supervisor at a hyperbaric chamber and teach CPR and First Aid for several agencies.

The EMT that told you to withhold CPR was WRONG, both legally and morally. If CPR is needed please don't hesitate to provide it.

 

[DaleC]

2013... and the propensity to spread bullsh_t is as prevalent as ever.

As a lay rescuer no one can force you to intervene on behalf of another. However, if you choose to do so, there is no place for you to make a judgement call based on age, health status, possible unintended consequences et al; you simply perform the treatment indicated to the level that you have been trained until someone relieves you of those duties.
As a professional, the actions are the same without the choice to intervene or not; it now becomes a duty.

There, that's it. I learned a long time ago to KISS and not anticipate the results - that's not my job. I'm just the emergency measures delivery system.

 

[TSandM]

There are circumstances where CPR is inappropriate. It is inappropriate if the person has executed a document requesting that it should not be done. It is inappropriate if the person has a serious medical illness and is already receiving all conceivable therapy to reverse or support their illness, but has arrested anyway (this is an ICU scenario). In my personal opinion, which has no basis in law, it is inappropriate if the person is suffering from dementia severe enough that they are no longer able to perform the activities of daily living without major support.

None of these scenarios has any relevance to diving. No matter how old the diver, they deserve an attempt at resuscitation. Ribs heal, and it is entirely incorrect that a person who had received CPR would live the rest of their life in terrible pain.

 

[Crass3000]

I agree with all of you and want to give CPR. If you broke thier ribs would they not ever heal because they were so old? And I would be basically giving the person a short time to live but they would be in agony because of the broken ribs? Would you ALWAYS give CPR? I certainly couldn't not if you agree that that is the best thing to do. I couldn't live with myself either way if I didn't help. That would just be horribly selfish if you ask me but that is why I am asking. Please give me as much input as possible from as many as possible. I want to know what you would do even if you were not an instructor and had no legal obligation. Life = better than death in my mind but I was told I am an idiot and basically selfish for thinking that.

 

[rongoodman]

Would you ALWAYS give CPR?

In the case of a diving accident, yes, absolutely. (25 years as a working paramedic.)

 

[Nwcid]

I want to know what you would do even if you were not an instructor and had no legal obligation. Life = better than death in my mind but I was told I am an idiot and basically selfish for thinking that.

An instructor has NO legal obligation to do CPR. The ONLY group that has a legal obligation are people that are ON DUTY be it Medics, Lifeguards, Nurses, ect. Any of these folks off duty have NO legal obligation to do CPR or even assist in any way. With that said the majority will help.

Life is good. They are not millions of people trained in CPR every year because it is a bad thing............

 

[Crass3000]

Life is good. They are not millions of people trained in CPR every year because it is a bad thing............

Yah I have been trying to get my friends and family to take a basic class in CPR that gives them an understanding of AEDs. I'm sure most of them will soon. I tell them the life they save may be one of those that are most important to them and it kind of hits home.