Crossing Agencies

[Blasto]

Cross agencies all you like. It only becomes a problem at instructor level.

If you have that choice, cross to RAID or SDI. They set a higher standard of training, spend more time on you, and RAID in particular does it at a marginally lower price - not to mention you'll be likely taught by experienced tec instructors.

 

[Scuba Scott]

If you have that choice, cross to RAID or SDI. They set a higher standard of training, spend more time on you, and RAID in particular does it at a marginally lower price - not to mention you'll be likely taught by experienced tec instructors.

Interesting.
I like higher standards. Do you have any specific examples of the higher standards? Maybe a comparison of the instructor manuals?
I would get on board with an agency that can deliver a better product at a lower cost but the "rebreather" part of RAID scares me off a bit.

 

[Patoux01]

I would get on board with an agency that can deliver a better product at a lower cost but the "rebreather" part of RAID scares me off a bit.

That's historical though, they do OW stuff just like the others.

They encourage different practices, but I've never actually seen it in action. I was given access to OW and nitrox course if I remember correctly a few years back, and it was quite decent, but it was only the e-learning so I can't tell for the actual in water stuff.

 

[Blasto]

I like higher standards. Do you have any specific examples of the higher standards? Maybe a comparison of the instructor manuals?
I would get on board with an agency that can deliver a better product at a lower cost but the "rebreather" part of RAID scares me off a bit.

Neutral buoyancy and trim from the get go, longer pool sessions, considerably more contingency preparation, e-learning with online exams. Better equipment rules, often BP/W and long hose. It's not day and night, you can only fit so much in the 4 days of OW without overload, so it's mostly the same skills done a bit better.

The rebreather part is how they started, now there are even all-OC RAID shops, for which it's mostly just a way to teach OW in a way that tec divers can get behind .
I think they still copied a bit too much from the big two, there was a need for more change, but it's a solid step in the right direction.

 

[Scuba Scott]

Neutral buoyancy and trim from the get go,

So neutral buoyancy skills is a written standard? If so, I have seen some SSI standards violations. PADI allows teaching neutrally buoyant and, depending on who you talk to, even encourages it. It's how I teach. Never saw any RAID classes. Much like bigfoot, nobody has ever seen one but we know they exist. OK, don't get offended by that but there is no RAID anywhere near me, so really, haven't seen them.

longer pool sessions,

PADI's pool sessions are performance based meaning the students go until they have mastered the skill so time wise it could actually be unlimited. It seems odd to me an agency would put a time constraint on training sessions but I have to take your word for it. Do you mean longer in that a greater number of skills are taught in CW? What are they?

considerably more contingency preparation,

OK, That is good stuff there. What specifically?

e-learning with online exams.

PADI has had that for a long time and I think it is done quite well.

Better equipment rules, often BP/W and long hose.

So BP/W and long hose is required? Seems a bit constraining for my tastes. PADI standards state what equipment is required but allow flexibility in configuration. I have taught in both standard rec equipment and in BP/W with long hose. I enjoy the flexibility to meet the needs of all customers and the ability to guide them to what is best for their diving goals.

It's not day and night, you can only fit so much in the 4 days of OW without overload, so it's mostly the same skills done a bit better.

I'll completely agree with the first part of that but I am missing the part where the standards say to "do it a bit better". I don't think I am convinced that anything would be different based on program content. I think the "better" part would depend on the instructor, who could be from any agency. Are you saying SSI & RAID limit OW training to 4 days? PADI allows it to be as long as it needs to be. Plenty of time to add new skills and in fact the number of required skills has steadily increased over the years.

The rebreather part is how they started, now there are even all-OC RAID shops, for which it's mostly just a way to teach OW in a way that tec divers can get behind .

I'm not sure why tech divers need to get behind anything. What they do is completely different than what your average rec diver does. I have a few unpleasant words for a tech diver that wants to be scuba police and tell people all diving needs done their way or not at all. You will never convince me I need to be in doubles, a drysuit, and use a long hose to look at the fishies on a 30' tropical reef but that is the attitude some people have. It's kind of like me telling people they are stupid for owning a car instead of a truck. Sure I could make some very valid arguments but the bottom line is different tools for different needs. I actually consider someone locked in to only one style of diving to be less knowledgeable than those who can adapt to different environments.

I think they still copied a bit too much from the big two, there was a need for more change, but it's a solid step in the right direction.

They probably copied most of it. I don't agree there was enough need for change to justify a whole new agency. What needed changed? What steps have they taken in the right direction to make those changes? Did they have a right to create a new agency? Sure, free market and all that. You can't get rich being an instructor so the real money is owning an agency. Good for them. RAID filled a niche for rebreather training but to tell me RAID or SSI does standard OW training that much better than anyone else is laughable. I could be wrong but you would have to prove it to me.

Don't take any of this personally, i'm not trying to tear you apart but you posted a lot of details as someone who knows the actual facts on this subject and I would just like clarification on what those facts are. I only know the PADI standards and am anxious to learn how they compare to the actual written standards of other agencies. I'm not a PADI fanboy. I would switch if I had a good reason but you would have to convince me something else is better and nobody has been able to do that yet with facts, they just try with opinions that are not always based in reality or incorrect assumptions of what the PADI standards are or allow.

 

[Patoux01]

Nah, the PADI e-learning is garbage, the one from RAID actually was working when I tried it, and that was a year before I used PADI e-learning.

You're missing many things and already approaching on a wrong idea, so it's useless to try and present this to you... Just go and ask them the standards.

RAID filled a niche for rebreather training but to tell me RAID or SSI does standard OW training that much better than anyone else is laughable. I could be wrong but you would have to prove it to me.

I take it you say that having never seen the courses or any diver from the agency?


Edit: Let me tag @DevonDiver , I believe he has some experience with PADI and recently moved to RAID. Not sure if he wants to take part in this though... Maybe @RainPilot too?

 

[Scuba Scott]

Nah, the PADI e-learning is garbage, the one from RAID actually was working when I tried it, and that was a year before I used PADI e-learning.

I have had a very good experience with PADI e-learning. Maybe I don't know how good it could be but I think it is far from garbage. I do have quite a bit of experience with a variety of computer based training of all types. I consider PADI's to be among the best. If RAID's is better it must really be impressive.

You're missing many things and already approaching on a wrong idea, so it's useless to try and present this to you... Just go and ask them the standards.

Please correct me. You seem offended but I have only asked for facts to back your claims. I have only stated facts about PADI based on their standards. It is only useless to present the facts to me if you have lied about them. I am open to learning.
Who should I ask about the standards? You spoke with authority about them so I am asking you.

I take it you say that having never seen the courses or any diver from the agency?

I have seen plenty of SSI divers and a few classes. As I stated I have not seen any from RAID. I did not mention that I investigated RAID quite extensively in an effort to find if they offered something better. I determined that there were no RAID representatives anywhere near where I live and that switching did not make business sense at the time. I did not find that they offered the ability to do something I could not do with PADI. The difficulty in crossing over, mainly due to the travel distances involved made it not worthwhile to me.

 

[Jim Holliday]

In the interest of transperancy I am one of the three people who started the “ new RAID” along with my partners Paul Toomer and Barry Coleman. RAID started as purely a rebreather agency but now has a full range of programs in tech, rebreather and recreational.

I am not a tech diver but Paul and Barry are two world renowned tech divers.

First to the question do standards need to be raised? We believe they do. DAN in fact has written articles about the need for better buoyancy control

Then of course apart from safety there is a huge drop out rate of 70-80% in diving. We believe this stems from a lack of confidence.

Ironically we are told consumers are time poor and we need to keep courses short. Then expect those same time poor consumers to roll up a week later for an Advanced course. This does not make sense.

We could talk for hours about our programs but to keep it simple let’s focus on Open Water.

We redesigned this from the ground up. We worked between extremes of conditions and involves high volume resort companies certifying 4000 people a year and low volume cold water facilities training divers for the most difficult dive conditions.

We adapted buoyancy training techniques from tech and efficiency of outcome modelling based on resort trainin.

The result is our system consistently produces divers that can dive in trim, neutrallly buoyant in diver position. Our standards require 50% more time in Open Water than other major agencies which the instructor makes up in terms of their time by a paperless super efficient on line record keeping system.

We have recently partnered with Kalkomey, a US based on line outdoor education specialist and we are seeing rapid growth across the USA and globally we are already strong in markets across South East Asia and Europe. The global support network is now very strong.

There are great instructors in all agencies our goal is to help make more great instructors, provide better training standards and materials and make great divers that keep diving.

We believe this is the best way to grow our industry

 

[BoltSnap]

Then of course apart from safety

Are you implying that diving isn't "safe" today? Are there statistics that would support your claim?

there is a huge drop out rate of 70-80% in diving. We believe this stems from a lack of confidence.

Is the diver drop out rate due to lack of confidence or due to the complicated life people live today in terms of money, time, social commitments (and many other factors) that get in the way of them continuing diving?

We worked between extremes of conditions and involves high volume resort companies certifying 4000 people a year and low volume cold water facilities training divers for the most difficult dive conditions.

We adapted buoyancy training techniques from tech and efficiency of outcome modelling based on resort trainin.

How did you address the time constraints of a high volume resort scenarios with the requirements of cold water facilities and demands of technical diving requirements?

The result is our system consistently produces divers that can dive in trim, neutrallly buoyant in diver position.

Is the "trim and neutral buoyancy" the key and main reason for diver drop out and measure of diver competency according to your agency's "dogma"?

We have recently partnered with Kalkomey, a US based on line outdoor education specialist and we are seeing rapid growth across the USA and globally we are already strong in markets across South East Asia and Europe. The global support network is now very strong.

1. What is this partnership about? Does Kalkomey own part of RAID or is it something different?

2. What does this partnership do for RAID and how does it reflect in the training RAID offers to the students?

 

[Jim Holliday]

Let me try and address as many of your points as I can. We are not saying diving is not safe but we need to strive to make it safer and as an industry we can do more. I suggest you read an article by John Lipman of DAN entitled the “Up and downs of bouyancy control”

John Lipman states “ despite the importance of bouyancy control to diver safety there is very often inadequate time devoted to realistically practicing and refining bouyancy control skills during a basic diving course”

There are numerous studies that support the fact that divers are often over weighted and it is a significant risk.


First we don’t have “dogmas” at RAID. We try not to enforce strict beliefs on anyone but we do let the facts speak for themselves.

You don’t have to wear black or dive with a wing or a long hose or wear not wear a snorkel on the side of your head. There are some good reasons to consider this. However you can wear a snorkel on the side of your head, use a standard length hose and wear a jacket style BC if you want.

You can even teach hovering in the Buddha position. We would just ask you to think about the logic of why you would want to teach bouyancy this way.

RAID is not an “extremist” agency or a “ tech agency” or “rebreather agency” or a “ freediving agency” We train in all these areas. We are divers just like you and we just want you to think is there a better way to teach divers?

Bouyancy control doesn’t fix diver drop out and it’s not the sole measurement of a diver’s competence but it is an extremely important skill and indicator of a diver’s ability to dive with confidence.

There are lots of reasons divers drop out and definitely modern lifestyles are part of the reason. However diver drop out averages about 80% but some stores/ instructors do much better and some do far worse. So clearly as instructors you can have a big impact on outcomes.

Doesn’t it stand to reason though if divers are more comfortable in the water they are much more likely to stay diving?

As regards Kalkomey’s involvement yes they are in a financial partnership with RAID.

They bring a huge amount to the table. They are experts in outdoor education and marketing and have big plans to enhance our presentation and marketing. They intend to drive customers to dive stores using their expertise in on line marketing and initial testing is outstanding

So our strategy is simple drive more customers into the sport and retain those customers through a series of strategies with quality education at the forefront

So the final question how do we address the time constraints of a high volume resort with the requirements of cold water diving?

Our academic training is totally restructured. Our first chapter of the Openwater Course is like a try dive program on steroids. This fastracks students into pool training while having a comprehensive contextualisation of all aspects of diving.

The confined water training flows much better because the academics does a far superior job of preparing divers for practical training

The practical training then serves to relate practical experience with academic training.

This system works far better for resort training because they can get divers diving quickly with a solid academic foundation

It’s not a case of one standard of training for cold water and another for resort diving. It’s a case of delivering better outcomes without excessive time commitment

Our standards dictate 50 % more time in Open Water and our confined water training is more comprehensive our academics are more comprehensive. Nothing however is over the top it’s just when you put it all together you get a better result.

Then we have the on line record keeping that saves you lots of time and ensures your much protected as it ensures good record keeping

The best way though to find out about RAID is to try it. So for anyone reading this thread if you would like to do a RAID crossover for free e mail me at jim@diveraid.com and I will do my best to get you hooked up with someone near you.

Would also love to hear any suggestions you might have - we don’t pretend to have all the answers but we figure if we ask enough people how to make things better we will keep getting better.

Thanks for your questions