Cuba??

[Lorenzoid]

Is this the people-to-people program?

If you say it is, then it is. That's how the system in its present form works. It's essentially what I would call the honor system. You fill out a simple card on departure checking the box asserting that your trip meets one of the 12 categories of permitted travel, one of which is "people-to-people," and that's all you have to do. Okay, almost all--you're also supposed to maintain records of what you did, who you met, etc., and have a "full-time" itinerary of such people-to-people interaction. No "tourism" for you! But the catch is that there is no requirement that you show the records or any other documentation to any authority--the US government doesn't want to see your documentation. In other words, there is no enforcement of these rules. So it is basically the honor system. As far as I can determine, many of the Americans visiting Cuba today essentially just hope and/or pretend that their trip meets the requirements, since there are no consequences if the trip did not meet the requirements, and no one ever makes a determination whether your trip met the requirements. Just check the box asserting that your trip meets the requirements, and be on your way. The Fact Sheet that @Antillas Diving posted explains it reasonably well.

@Antillas Diving, thank you for being diplomatic about it.

 

[Wookie]

However - My security clearance (DoD - Secret) is currently on the slow boat because of multiple trips to Cuba. So while what you said is technically correct, there could be repercussions. As in I have to account to the OPM exactly what I was doing and who I saw. And yes, I did meet with Cuban government officials on a sponsored trip. I was with American government officials and under the watchful eye of the State Department the entire time.

 

[tursiops]

Excuse me, I do not want to fool anyone. I feel some discomfort in his words. If someone wants to do a diving trip in Cuba, I offer it with pleasure, I do not offer to travel illegally to Cuba. I'm sorry you did not like my words, not advice.

I do not know what has offended you. It is important, however, to note that YOU are not the person who gets in trouble for violating US rules.

If you say it is, then it is. That's how the system in its present form works. It's essentially what I would call the honor system. You fill out a simple card on departure checking the box asserting that your trip meets one of the 12 categories of permitted travel, one of which is "people-to-people," and that's all you have to do. Okay, almost all--you're also supposed to maintain records of what you did, who you met, etc., and have a "full-time" itinerary of such people-to-people interaction. No "tourism" for you! But the catch is that there is no requirement that you show the records or any other documentation to any authority--the US government doesn't want to see your documentation. In other words, there is no enforcement of these rules. So it is basically the honor system. As far as I can determine, many of the Americans visiting Cuba today essentially just hope and/or pretend that their trip meets the requirements, since there are no consequences if the trip did not meet the requirements, and no one ever makes a determination whether your trip met the requirements. Just check the box asserting that your trip meets the requirements, and be on your way. The Fact Sheet that @Antillas Diving posted explains it reasonably well.

Not sure if you've done the Cuba trip or not, but clearly CBP was very interested in the trip a group of us took. We had all the necessry paperwork with us, and did not need to show it, but that is far preferable to NOT having the paperwork and NEEDING to show it. Given the way our borders are increasingly monitored, I think it is silly to just assume you'll be OK or try and wing it or bluff your way through. Play by the rules, all of them, or don't play.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Granted. I will qualify my remarks by adding that if one is seeking a security clearance or might be up for nomination as a Supreme Court justice, then one may want to make sure one follows the requirements to the letter. Aside from that, it seems to me that there is no enforcement and no repercussions for inadvertently getting it wrong.

 

[Wookie]

Granted. I will qualify my remarks by adding that if one is seeking a security clearance or might be up for nomination as a Supreme Court justice, then one may want to make sure one follows the requirements to the letter. Aside from that, it seems to me that there is no enforcement and no repercussions for inadvertently getting it wrong.

No argument. And I had wonderful experiences there, and was honored to run the very first passenger vessel to Cuba, which is why I bought the Spree in the first place. And 2 weeks ago I would have backed you up to the hilt. This week, I have a tiny tiny bit more insight.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not sure if you've done the Cuba trip or not, but clearly CBP was very interested in the trip a group of us took. We had all the necessry paperwork with us, and did not need to show it, but that is far preferable to NOT having the paperwork and NEEDING to show it. Given the way our borders are increasingly monitored, I think it is silly to just assume you'll be OK or try and wing it or bluff your way through. Play by the rules, all of them, or don't play.

I haven't been there in 10 years or so. The new rules are of interest to me, but I haven't utilized them. Don't get me wrong--I am generally a by-the-book kind of guy, and I am not advocating that anyone do anything but follow the rules to the letter. I wouldn't advocate "bluffing," but on the other hand there are a great many Americans traveling to Cuba, thinking (or hoping) what they arranged satisfies the "people-to-people" category requirements, and from what I have heard some of them describe, their trips probably did not. Granted, I only read or hear anecdotes from a few travelers, but I have not heard any stories of a CBP agent combing through someone's records to see if they spent a "full-time schedule of educational exchange activities intended to enhance contact with the Cuban people, support civil society in Cuba, or promote the Cuban people’s independence from Cuban authorities, and that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba." (per the new FAQs). Sounds to me like the CBP agent gives it a quick sniff test to see if the traveler at least made a good faith effort to follow the rules, and that's all. I mean, if a traveler shows complete ignorance, that's begging for special treatment from CBP. But again, I am not advocating anyone do anything but follow the rules to the letter--or at least to the best of their own interpretation of the rules.

It's also true that we don't know if enforcement has been beefed up under the new administration in Washington. It would sure be helpful to everyone if our government removed the fuzzy rules now in place and again took a clear position--one way or the other--on travel to Cuba by ordinary Americans. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Antillas Diving]

to note that YOU are not the person who gets in trouble for violating US rules.

@tursiops Why do you say that? You don't know anything about me. In my trips the visa is not included. What do I do illegal? I pick my clients up in Havana, from whole world, American, German, Spanish and we mustn't control how they arrived to Cuba. This is a job of immigration. I don't sell visas... What is it the problem? Do not manipulate my words
Do not talk about rules because of that I know more than you. I am Cuban

 

[tursiops]

Whatever.

 

[Antillas Diving]

@galscuba I hope you find the correct dive shop for you. I am very sorry for this theater. good luck with your scuba diving trip. If you need some information, I´ll be happy to help you
Thanks

 

[Lorenzoid]

@Antillas Diving, as you know, travel to Cuba by Americans for scuba diving is a topic of much interest and is therefore a topic of sometimes heated debate. The rules for us are in a state of transition and, as I like to point out, not entirely clear--seemingly intentionally vague. I don't think anybody can be absolutely certain whether their trip satisfies the rules for a "people-to-people" visit under the so-called "general license" or "12 categories" provisions. As I understand it, "general license" is government-speak for "it's up to the individual traveler alone to determine whether his trip meets the requirements." Some of us cling to the hope that a dive operator or travel company will insulate us from our personal responsibility. We know you are not in a position to do that for travelers.