Dangerous divers, redux

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If the diver is a danger to himself or to the dive group I would discreetly pull the DM aside and discuss the situation. Otherwise I butt out. We always seek out dive operations that allow us to dive independently in all aspects, but if the diver were to limit our diving then there would be a serious discussion with the DM.
 
I too am curious as to what you might have said to the guy?
1) Since you are out of practice and too cheap to hire a private Instructor/DM, stay away from me and mine and go off to die alone.
2) you should return that gear you stole before you get yourself killed and then take swimming lessons before getting OW Certified.
3) would you like me to sign your log book? (as a ruse to see if the guy actually has a log book)
I would not say anything though, because I think the guy already knows, and it really is up to him to ask DM for suggestions.

"You should really look into a refresher course." would be one statement. "Please keep a decent distance from the 13 year old diver with under 20 dives." would be another comment.
 
Not sure a "blistering earful" is warranted but I would certainly make my concerns known that the buddy situation or lack thereof was unsafe. I know that there are plenty of dive operations that guide divers like shepherding sheep, I don't care for these type of dive scenarios but often new divers in unfamiliar waters will just follow the "expert" at the head of the group....this seems to be one of the norms throughout the industry regardless of my thoughts that it is not the safest approach.

But then again, how much of the story is hyperbole? The dive master was evidently aware of the struggle with the fins. Was the DM doing air pressure checks on this diver, how about the rest of the group? Was there another experienced diver playing tail end charlie to keep the group together and help handle potential issues? When the diver ran low on air did he ascend and return to the boat alone or did someone accompany him? Since the OP ran low on air soon after the diver in question and was the 2nd person back on the boat then one could legitimately ask "how come?", and who accompanied him back to the surface/boat?

OP, now you see, these are nuances that would help clarify and relate what really was going on.

It is super easy to criticize a fellow diver, and that clouds the lens through which we as individuals focus on the situation and inhibits our ability to glean something that could make us more competent, capable, and truly confident divers.

In my mind, every dive is a learning experience.

-Z
You are correct. I could give a minute by minute, play by play description of the dive. I could tell you the photographers hung back and did not interact with him. I could tell you another diver, not in our party, agreed that he was dangerous. I could tell you about all the air checks the very competent DM did during the dive. I could tell you that the DM would send him up for his safety stop, and kept an eye on him till he surfaced. I could tell you about the fish and coral life I saw. There are lots of nuances that would make for a very lengthy post. If you want to know more, just ask.

For me, I don't think I have been accused of hyperbole in my recounts of stories. I did have people think I may have been exaggerating about the size of a prime rib at a restaurant. But, that was before they went and saw it for themselves. Then, they told me I was under-exaggerating. In this case, I would never suggest someone get on the next flight and dive with this guy to see it for themselves.

Like I said in a previous reply, I had a couple of prime examples of amateur hour myself during the dive trip. The difference is that I was endangering myself, and not others. Honestly, I hope this post gets new divers to look at their own dive style. Part of my dive buddy's training was to keep his arms crossed and relax during the dive. He imparted this wisdom onto me soon thereafter. It wasn't that I was all that much into swimming, but another person on our guys' trips was bad about it. His complaining about that guy got me thinking and more conscious about my behavior while diving. I hope telling this story is a learning experience for others, before they rip a reg out of another diver's mouth.
 
This type of “bad diver” should not be a danger to others unless they run out of gas. Then any diver I don’t know may be a potential danger. Any certified diver should be able to manage personal space issues, displaced mask or reg. Is it an irritant? Sure. And that is one of the reasons Eric and I prefer diving independently whenever the locale allows.

That said, I do get a little knot in my gut when I see divers damage coral, if the diver is bad but especially when they are “good.”
 
It depends on the dive. If this was a 30fsw paddle around dive with little current, and good visibility, he was in the right place to sort out his issues. He was being supervised by the DM. Nothing teaches like experience and he may not have been in the water fo a while or he was fresh out of OW.

The boat is not responsible for training this guy, and they may not have realized he was a train wreck prior to his opening his gear bag, so don’t blame them. They watched out for him and got him back on board safely. They did fine.

Marie, I remember when you showed up here not long ago and, based on your posts at the time, was a hot mess.

If you don’t want to buddy up with the guy, either A) ask the boat crew to quietly pair him with someone else or B) make up a polite excuse (I want to work on skills with my son).

This is fun time activity and this dude paid his way and no body wants to be publicly humiliated on their day off.

If you want to help him, engage in a conversation. He will probably spill his guts, telling you everything you want to know about how ended up there. Most train wrecks know they are and are embarrassed by it. You showing a little compassion will make their day better and help them learn faster.
 
OP, the fact that you admit you were a danger to yourself translates that you were a danger to everyone around you in the water. That you do not realize this but are quick to and feel justified in criticizing another diver is more the real problem/danger.

Moving your arms while diving may not be an example of good techinique but it is hardly unsafe....the ocean (lake, pond, etang, etc) is a big place with lots of space for quite a number of divers, If you can't space yourself safely from another diver who's techinique is a bit erratic then you should stop focusing on the erratic diver and focus more on your own positioning in the water. Also, if visibility is more than a few meters then there is little excuse for divers, especially with experience, to be bumping into each other and kicking each other...in a low vis environment or a night dive where it may be more imperative to stay shoulder to shoulder I can see this, but during a dive with 2-3 meters or more of visibility being arms length apart is close enough for communication and safety.

Also, you remarked that this diver in question would be a danger in a swim through....it sounds from everything you describe that there were other divers that lacked experience in general among the divers in your group...particularly the 13yo you reference....perhaps your excursion group should not have been anywhere near a swim through....and if the decision was beyond your control, you could have elected to pass through before the erratic diver or after them negating the so called safety issues you talk of.

A regulator being inadvertently pulled/knocked from someones mouth is not necessarily an emergency, it is something that is trained for during basic open water cert courses. In the scenario you describe the unlikely event would be the diver using their arms would snag a hose and yank the regulator out of someoneelse's mouth...this is unlikely to cause injury, the diver affected should have enough spatial awareness to keep clear of the guy, and if it was to unfold where the reg got yanked out it is as simple as grabbing the octo/safe second and plopping that in the mouth and then recover the primary second stage.

Having a mask knocked off, again is not an emergency, and is a skill specifically trained in every basic open water course. It could be problematic if the mask is lost, but again all that means is some discomfort and an aborted dive, rarely does it involve injury, and in the case where one is better off ascending the anchor or other line for safety, then the diver with the lost mask can be escorted back to the line by their buddy where they will then abort the dive...again no danger, just some discomfort...and great learning experience.

From everything you have brought up for discussion, the most legitimate thing that should have raised any concern is that there was nobody specifically paired with this guy to look out for him should a serious issue have occurred. Buddy diving is the standard taught in every basic open water course that I am aware of. To me, if it is truly the case, that this guy was not paired with anyone and just gommed onto the group at large, then that is an egregious error on behalf of the dive-op/DM, while not ideal, they could have at least tripled up one of the buddy teams if there were any acknowledged buddy teams at all. Everything else you have mentioned are really non-issues and can be mitigated by persons being aware of what is going on around them which is an individual responsibility.

There is no diver's code like the skier's code where one person has the right of way in certain scenarios. Even with boats where there is right of way/rules of the road, the imperative is to maintain awareness and avoid collision at all cost if possible...if it is possible to avoid collision but action is not taken, the rules of the road for open and inland waterways is that both vessels are at fault (or course there are specific exceptions but the struck vessel must prove that they were not capable of maneuvering).

The fact is that none of the issues you present actually happened, and if they did occur would only present as truly dangerous in the most extreme of circumstances, makes your concern comes across as you not wanting to share the open water with someone less skilled than you. True/not true...only you can judge that.

Among your mistakes, was you interpreting the other divers experience based on the fact that they had well worn/vintage gear. People buy and sell old gear all the time, it means nothing with regard to experience. It could very well have been this guy's 1st post certification dive(s)...nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with rapid air consumption in this scenario, and nothing wrong with excessive arm movement and kicking either. It is not only not dangerous but to be expected of a beginner diver....All those things only get better with time/experience under the water.

The story you posted seems to reflect more about you than the other diver.

Plan your dive, dive your plan, endeavor to leave the water a better diver than you entered the water, and help others do the same. Put your ego in your BC pocket, or better yet leave it at home...despite the vast amount of space in the open waters of the world for divers to explore and enjoy they seem awfully crowded when people bring their egos along for a dive.

-Z
 
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Whoa there @Zef , I beg to differ because I do appreciate this topic and discussion about factors that one diver can do that affect other divers. For one, I have advocated that if someone has no buddy, and has not dived in a while, then they should pay for a dive guide, not expect instruction and nanny-assistance from others who have paid for dive and have other concerns(13 year olds to watch).
The last dive trip i did pay for a DM for me and my daughter and tipped well for first dive making it clear we hadn’t dove recently and needed a refresher. Went perfectly. The next night dive was with two older experienced guys that had not dove in a year. Did that go well? Hell no! Those rusty-diver guys kept landing on top of me when looking at Octopus, and crashing into daughter by following too close, single file. Thank God she did NOT kick their mask off.
Overall not a bad dive, but if those two had taken a refresher dive, just by themselves, before joining other divers, it would have been better for all. @Snoweman has a valid point that would stop a lot of dangerous diver situations.
 
@Snoweman

You have no tolerance for less skilled divers. To the point that you go to the extent of posting about it to publicaly complain.

I hope I never dive with you because I'm sure you'll be critical of my diving in some way and ascertain that I too am a danger to others around me.

I sure hope the diving community as a whole has a more compassionate attitude towards divers who could use some improvement in their skills.
 
Snoweman’s dangerous diver tale is told

Not for yucks and not to get LOL’d

This is Etiquette talking,

Not newbie diver stalking.

Stop the Savage Scubaboard Scold!
 
Snoweman’s dangerous diver tale is told

Not for yucks and not to get LOL’d

This is Etiquette talking,

Not newbie diver stalking.

Stop the Savage Scubaboard Scold!


When one puts a post on public forum looking for vindication veiled by asking for advice, one opens themself up to criticism. Defending oneself by stating they were concerned by the "danger" the other person MIGHT have caused while stating they were endangering themself and that that is ok, just garners further criticism. The fact that this was posted in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" sub-forum should not equate to being free from critique. Perhaps the OP should display the same etiquette and tolerance your limerick demands of the rest of us. But if a poster is going to "hang it out there" in the way the OP did, by asking for advice then don't be surprised that not all the advice is neatly packaged as agreeable and palatable.

Savage scold often begets savage scold.

Otherwise, nice poem...you definitely have a talent.

-Z
 

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