Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[dumpsterDiver]

The thing about formal instruction vs mentorship, is,... if the instructor himself is properly trained & following the standards, guidelines & protocols developed by the above mentioned analysis of problems that have occured, the instructor can & does the training in the most controlled environment possible. If something goes awry, they have been specifically trained to handle those situations to teach the student & keep the student reasonably safe while learning the skills to make them a better prepared diver for the environment. A mentor does not neccesarily or usually have those skills. Basically a well trained instructor can most usually get the student's bacon out of the fire if there is an unexpected problem, or the student causes a potentially dangerous problem. Trying to learn it on one's own IMO is even more foolish as you don't have even the guidance of someone that might have some of the knowledge & might/ maybe be able to get another diver out of their own pickle.

Just in case you forgot,... Many (not all, though) technical diving pioneers developed the procedures & became the first instructors of those procedures. Sure, diving is a living breathing, changing sport, but once again,... why reinvent the wheel when the mistakes have already been made?

this was one incident where the instructor was not inspiring confidence in me.. There are others I have seen over the years..


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/175745-no-technical-training-me.html

 

[NAM001]

I think several things combine to make the situation what it is.

1. We are a letigious society. You can not exagerate (over emphasize) any situation enough to shield youself from legal liability. The lawyers have canceled common sence untill further notice.
a. Watch tv and look at how much advertisement time is for the product and how much is in disclaimer. No one listens to the riskes invilved because because
hazzards are not real, it is only a legal loophole to jump through.
2. If diving was a dangerous activity it would be regulated by a recognized governing authority somewhere. Its not.... so the community is unjustly trying to keep me out of the sport.
3. if anything goes wrong i can blame it on someone else. Besides i am invincable.
4. If some one else can do it, so can I.
5. The training and equipment is all a scam to take my money. mike nelson never had or did any of this crap.
6. on dive boards Even SB.... a question is asked and never answered. A scolding session commences about.... being non dir is going to get you some day. People quit listening and asking. look at he number of memmbers vs visitors.
7. dive site libility releases leaves the sites faultless and is a buck passing loophole established by lawyers. Hence warnings included are ignored.
8. seing someone at 50" at a 45 degree angle dog paddling through the water clearly demonstrates that any bozo can do this. |But yet you have to have training to dog paddle. So why should training be necessary for anything else.
9. if entering that cave or structure was really dangerous there would be a guard of checkpoint on it stopping me. since there is not it is not a real hazzard and is someones problem.
10. the smarter ones have done the math ...and you can do a 200 ft dive on a single 80.
11. thats what my buddy is for
12. if i can get on a plane and go from surface to 30,000 ft with out training, why do i need training to down only 150' below the surface
13. if you can snorkle you can dive. Breathing is breathing...

I have heard all theese things and more. The most memorable are the ones that come from insta buddies that go like this.. I had no idea a tank falling out could happen.

Until something happens these ideas govern the thought process of a small percentage of invincable divers. There is nothing like a loosing a tank or a fin or the like to make
one reevaluate your self.

Like many on here. we ave all learned the hard way regarding one aspect or another of the sport. I did not give a hoot about cheap lights till 2 of 3 of failed on a night dive.
I now hold in my hand a light that costs the same as a 6 pack of al 80's. And i just dont care about the cost any more. I will readily admit i have been deep in the above
thought processes to various degrees at one time or another. In some cases i still am and probably always be. The saying that you dont know what you dont know is very true. and there are those 47% whose mind you will never change. One percent of them are the problem children. Im glad im not one of those 1/2 overall percent, and even if i am ..1/2 percent is not really a problem.
If it was a problem the scuba police would stop me.

 

[Superlyte27]

AOW - which I took immediately after OW. Almost everything else I've done in diving has been the result of self study. But that's what I mean about some people being able to access information in different ways. It's in my profile if you click on it.



Disagree. Most of the other stuff is just taking the best or worst case scenario to prove/disprove a point which is a no-win quagmire I choose not to step into.



There's this concept in diving called situational awareness which I feel I should point out at this juncture... I'm not the person who made those comments. Your dismissive attitude towards a complete strangers ability to think doesn't win me over to your belief system in any case. I'm not speaking in absolute terms - just for my own situation; and I think I presented a fairly balanced and intelligent POV in that regard, even if one disagrees. I certainly didn't need to insult anyone else along the way in doing so.

This subject is not a yes/no proposition. It varies in regards to the individual, aptitude and degree. You may argue from one perspective and I from another, but neither of us will encompass an absolute position that addresses all people, all the time.

I don't think I was ever insulting to you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. But, until you've seen what we (technical divers do), you really don't have a point of view. You have a point of suspicion. You have an assumption. You have an idea. That's it.

But you are right, I do speak in absolute terms. History has proven for decades that if you enter a cave without PROPER TRAINING, you stand a good chance of dying. I understand progressive advances that take you a little bit further, a little bit more familiar, a little bit more risky, supposedly exposing you to the experience you need to survive. That works right up until you screw up and die. There comes a point where you've gone too far, and there's no one to save you but yourself. Only you are not good enough to save yourself. At least that's what's been going on for 30'ish years as OW divers try to survive (unsuccessfully) in an overhead environment.

Again, I certainly didn't mean to insult you. Usually if i'm trying to insult, it's unmistakable.

 

[oldschoolto]

I have no problem with the study, plan and slowly working up to doing something.... But "MOST" people don't do this... Most people think they are above and beyond superman.... And get themselves and others killed...

As seen in the other thread, Most people that are doing what you want to do.. Will be more of then happy to help you get there.... To some it all about the money and it'll always be that way... It's fun to learn on your own, But "NEVER" pass up a "GOOD" mentor.... Most times instructors turn in to mentors very quickly with a willing student...

Jim...

 

[offroadr1]

i am on both sides of the fence with this discussion. it really depends on the situation and what tools, knowledge, etc that you have at your disposal. i did not take a drysuit or sidemount course. i deemed it to be something that i could learn on my own with assistance from reading material that i sought out and from mentoring by my dive buddy. frankly my dive buddy could provide most of the training that i would ever want, but she cannot issue me a cert card. i will be taking a cavern class. i feel that a cavern diving is much more life threatening than drysuit diving. there are some things that an individual can accomplish on their own, but there are many things that it just better to have some formal guidance for.

 

[Rogersea]

Uhmmmmm..... wrong!...... I don't even usually cover expenses when I instruct. I enjoy the sport & I enjoy passing along knowledge & skills in a safe manner. There is no "vested interest" here. Not everyone has ulterior motives, as some of the conspiracy theorist here have.

No conspiracy theorist here.

This is the Basic SCUBA Forum.

I am sure your a great Instructor.


Cheers,

Roger

 

[DaleC]

I'm under the belief that we are talking about diving beyond ones formal education level in general and not cave diving in particular. Perhaps the OP can clarify.

I don't think I was ever insulting to you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. But, until you've seen what we (technical divers do), you really don't have a point of view. You have a point of suspicion. You have an assumption. You have an idea. That's it.

You're making me blush. Golly, I really have no clue...

That's quite an assumption. How do you know what I do or do not know? Have you met or dived with me before?

You (technical divers) must be awesome!!! I do dive with some guys who use trimix and are instructors or instructor trainers but we just call each other friends

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm under the belief that we are talking about diving beyond ones formal education level in general and not cave diving in particular. Perhaps the OP can clarify.



You're making me blush. Golly, I really have no clue...

That's quite an assumption. How do you know what I do or do not know? Have you met or dived with me before?

You (technical divers) must be awesome!!! I do dive with some guys who use trimix and are instructors or instructor trainers but I just call them friends

Well, you said yourself you are AoW. Are these Instructors and Instructor Trainers taking you into caves? And I wasn't just speaking to YOU but to the masses.

I'm not sure the OP mentioned caves specifically, but I mentioned in this thread somewhere that I was using cave diving as an example because cave diving is my passion and the best example of how cave diving without formal training would eventually kill you.

 

[soltari675]

I understand you are a student right now. But do you really believe that training is the only way to gain knowledge?

No. I believe it *should* come from training. But I believe a person can learn very well from someone not an instructor. Or by doing research. The problem, however, is that you may not even know what exactly to research as said above by TS&M. In the case of the example I referred to, the divers went to 200ft on a single tank of air. Clearly, they have not done the proper research. The only thing they found was to use a deco bottle and thought they were ready. If they had proper training, they would have known how dangerous that was.

I don't believe a person should go get as many certification cards as they can to say they have training. I do strongly believe that if you intend to do a particular kind of dive, whether it be cave, wreck, deep, ice, or anything like that, you should have training of some sort by someone who has experience doing that kind of diving. To not do it is just inviting Darwinism which wouldn't bother me, except I don't like when someone I know has to go retrieve the body...

 

[redacted]

No. I believe it *should* come from training. But I believe a person can learn very well from someone not an instructor. Or by doing research. The problem, however, is that you may not even know what exactly to research as said above by TS&M. In the case of the example I referred to, the divers went to 200ft on a single tank of air. Clearly, they have not done the proper research. The only thing they found was to use a deco bottle and thought they were ready. If they had proper training, they would have known how dangerous that was.

I don't believe a person should go get as many certification cards as they can to say they have training. I do strongly believe that if you intend to do a particular kind of dive, whether it be cave, wreck, deep, ice, or anything like that, you should have training of some sort by someone who has experience doing that kind of diving. To not do it is just inviting Darwinism which wouldn't bother me, except I don't like when someone I know has to go retrieve the body...

Do you think those divers were not trained in OW about depth restrictions? Or that OW divers are not trained to stay away from overhead environments and decompression diving? It is not a lack of training that gets these divers into trouble, It is that the training failed to accomplish the objective. Training is not the end all solution to diving problems. But it probably is the fastest and safest way to expand your diving opportunities.