Dark Narc or Why I don’t dive air to 100ft

[dumpsterDiver]

Thank you!
...

Guys, the answer to the problem isn't what you do once you get that severely impaired. The answer is NOT to get that severely impaired. Either don't go to those depths in cold water and poor viz, or use a breathing mix that doesn't end you up seeing hobgoblins. We're focusing on the wrong thing here. .....n[/I]!

In some respects I agree with this. The divers should not have done a dive they couldn't handle. If they can't handle 100 ft, then maybe they should set a limit of what 90 ft, 80 ft?

But as always, the conversation drifts into what should have been done once errors were made(i.e., they put themselves in a situation that was nearly out of control due to narcosis). Some of us think they should have headed up immediately while others think that "clinging" to the bottom was the safer response.

Would you recommend the same course of action if divers found themselves wasted at 180 or 240 ft? My recommendation would be the same, start an ascent.

 

[Theunis]

Staying at depth and hoping for the best would seem to be the worst possible choice. Yes, its cold. Yes, vis is crap. However, the main issue is the narcosis. That is the main problem to address especially with the extreme symptoms the OP is describing. I have never heard of someone ascending and the symptoms not disappearing. Mine have always gone away by 60ft. That is not too close to the surface. Even if they had to ascend to 20ft, it is a better scenerio than sitting at 100ft hoping for the best as things keep falling apart.

I totally agree with you on this!

My instructor had drilled in the rule that if you are narced and have a clear passage too ascend you HAVE to ascend and I had to practice that rule on a few occasions. It works every time. What is the point in staying down there and risk the possibility of an even worst case of narcs or maybe a blackout?

 

[piikki]

Staying at depth and hoping for the best would seem to be the worst possible choice. Yes, its cold. Yes, vis is crap. However, the main issue is the narcosis. That is the main problem to address especially with the extreme symptoms the OP is describing. I have never heard of someone ascending and the symptoms not disappearing. Mine have always gone away by 60ft. That is not too close to the surface. Even if they had to ascend to 20ft, it is a better scenerio than sitting at 100ft hoping for the best as things keep falling apart.

It’s a good point what you make that it’s a huge risk just to swim around till you swim no more. It has happened to people. I know stories where outsiders have come to rescue, and popped back regulators that have started falling off etc. It’s worth repeating that one should make an immediate, active effort to correct the situation before it worsens. I am not a narcosis expert and have certainly not extensively experienced it but I would be very hesitant if someone told me to wait it out.

I am trying hard not to try to put out that my choice of not to ascent was great. There were no great solutions left any more. I had majorly *^%&ed up. I strongly advocate getting out if you are that impaired.

At this point all I can do is to clarify why the risk of ascending remained unacceptable for me for the time being when the other option was to follow the bottom and search for the slope unless situation worsened.

I am sure it would be pretty bad if I came up feet first and embolized or got bent because I lost it in my stress during the ascent. It would not help if I became more disoriented and started bouncing back and forth to the bottom in an attempt to regain a sense of which way was up, and depleted my gas in the process. (Sinking back down in fear of shooting up too fast).

I would quit diving if I lost contact with my buddy during the ascent, and she never made it to the surface. It’s all fine and dandy to say that why don’t you concentrate on your gauges and grab your buddy to stay together but I already lacked couple of extra hands because I was planning how to manage all the dumps and valves that appeared out-of-order. I would have begun the ascent with a wing that I truly believed trapped air and did not vent. I had a vivid image in my head about shooting to the surface. I was sure that at some point that trapped air and confusion was going to get me… something was certainly going to get me… OMG something real bad was about to happen for sure…

My buddy had clearly indicated she did not wish to lose the bottom. I was already worried about my mental state worsening. I knew it would in midwater. We have had a couple of hard no-reference midwater ascents together, I know it takes some extra concentration from both of us. How was I going to be able to help my buddy if I expected to be a missile? I knew we’d lose viz immediately upon rising a few feet higher. How was I to negotiate her in that condition? (And I felt I had to if need be, this was, after all, all my fault!!!) I was terrified of leaving her. Nobody is refusing to believe that narcosis eases on ascent but I did not think of that. I was not concentrating on going up 20 or 40 feet. I was not in that kind of a state of mind. It was either or. I expected bad things to happen.

I know it would be easier if there was a clear yes/no answer to every problem. Even in retrospect I am not standing behind my choice 100% even though it appears I am rationalizing it pretty heavy-duty. I totally agree that staying on the bottom could have turned very, very nasty and who knows how fast? However, the risks on ascent were still very real too. It was not going to be a cakewalk in the state we had managed to get ourselves in.

I am certainly not going onto future diving thinking that next time (what next time, stupid!!!) I should just ascent come-what-may. But I should keep myself in a condition I can! I am glad things turned out the way they did. Lucky and glad. Once again, the main point is that it all should have never ever come to the point of such impairment where we had such lousy options left to choose in-between…

 

[battles2a5]

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Cheers

Fair enough

 

[TSandM]

Well, honestly, piikki, the narcosis you needed to fix was the reason you couldn't make a rational choice to ascend. I don't think anybody is blaming you . . . That's the terrifying thing about the story, is that you were too impaired to take any effective action about your impairment.

The more I think about this story, the scarier it gets. This is precisely why I made a decision over two years ago that a) I would keep my Nitrox dives shallower than 100 fsw (and I actually don't do very many that even get into the 90 foot range) and that b) I would get a helium card.

 

[Blackwood]

As for the specific dive in question, the divers could have ascended to a shallower depth and then simply swam what ever the appropriate compass heading was toward shore while maintaining a uniform depth in the water column.

I think that in the light of day most of us agree. However, those of us who have experienced narcosis know that making the right decision isn't easy.

Ever notice how once someone is completely plastered they're very likely to keep drinking? Even though to those of us who are sober it's a no-brainer, to the impaired it's not.

I like to think that I would have ascended. But who knows?

 

[Peter Guy]

This has been a very interesting discussion especially because I know one of the posters quite well (TSandM is my wife).

For those of you who believe TSandM's position would not have been the best solution, I believe you are correct -- AND incorrect. You forget that HER position is the same as the OP's -- ascend, which is the course y'all are arguing. The difference, of course, is HOW to ascend -- go up immediately and lose all visual references or ascend via the known route of the slope.

NEITHER is a good answer in this case and for any one individual, either might be the least worst scenario.

IF you are as narced as they appeared to have been, ascending 5 feet, losing all visual reference and swimming away from shore but without ascending any further would have been just as possible as ascending out of the "narc zone". Remember, they already didn't trust their gear -- why is it you believe they would have trusted their depth gauges to confirm they were ascending? A drunk at 95 feet is still a drunk -- just now, perhaps, a totally lost drunk.

I don't have the same issues with lack of visual reference as TSandM (thank goodness) but I know that, for her, the least worst scenario would have been to try to go upslope. The OP KNEW there WAS an upslope and that it would bring them home -- in her state of mind it is not at all clear that she knew there was an UP that would have brought them home.

I do believe there is a moral to this story and it is, of course, IF you are going to do the dive, do it on the appropriate gas for the dive.

(And for those of you for whom He is "too expensive" -- How do YOU answer the Jack Benny question -- "Your money or your life?" "Wait a minute, I'm thinking...."

 

[dumpsterDiver]

It’s a good point what you make that it’s a huge risk just to swim around till you swim no more. It has happened to people. I know stories where outsiders have come to rescue, and popped back regulators that have started falling off etc. It’s worth repeating that one should make an immediate, active effort to correct the situation before it worsens. I am not a narcosis expert and have certainly not extensively experienced it but I would be very hesitant if someone told me to wait it out.

I am trying hard not to try to put out that my choice of not to ascent was great. There were no great solutions left any more. I had majorly *^%&ed up. I strongly advocate getting out if you are that impaired.

At this point all I can do is to clarify why the risk of ascending remained unacceptable for me for the time being when the other option was to follow the bottom and search for the slope unless situation worsened.

I am sure it would be pretty bad if I came up feet first and embolized or got bent because I lost it in my stress during the ascent. It would not help if I became more disoriented and started bouncing back and forth to the bottom in an attempt to regain a sense of which way was up, and depleted my gas in the process. (Sinking back down in fear of shooting up too fast).

I would quit diving if I lost contact with my buddy during the ascent, and she never made it to the surface. It’s all fine and dandy to say that why don’t you concentrate on your gauges and grab your buddy to stay together but I already lacked couple of extra hands because I was planning how to manage all the dumps and valves that appeared out-of-order. I would have begun the ascent with a wing that I truly believed trapped air and did not vent. I had a vivid image in my head about shooting to the surface. I was sure that at some point that trapped air and confusion was going to get me… something was certainly going to get me… OMG something real bad was about to happen for sure…

My buddy had clearly indicated she did not wish to lose the bottom. I was already worried about my mental state worsening. I knew it would in midwater. We have had a couple of hard no-reference midwater ascents together, I know it takes some extra concentration from both of us. How was I going to be able to help my buddy if I expected to be a missile? I knew we’d lose viz immediately upon rising a few feet higher. How was I to negotiate her in that condition? (And I felt I had to if need be, this was, after all, all my fault!!!) I was terrified of leaving her. Nobody is refusing to believe that narcosis eases on ascent but I did not think of that. I was not concentrating on going up 20 or 40 feet. I was not in that kind of a state of mind. It was either or. I expected bad things to happen.

I know it would be easier if there was a clear yes/no answer to every problem. Even in retrospect I am not standing behind my choice 100% even though it appears I am rationalizing it pretty heavy-duty. I totally agree that staying on the bottom could have turned very, very nasty and who knows how fast? However, the risks on ascent were still very real too. It was not going to be a cakewalk in the state we had managed to get ourselves in.

I am certainly not going onto future diving thinking that next time (what next time, stupid!!!) I should just ascent come-what-may. But I should keep myself in a condition I can! I am glad things turned out the way they did. Lucky and glad. Once again, the main point is that it all should have never ever come to the point of such impairment where we had such lousy options left to choose in-between…

Blah, blah, blah, the more you say, the more it appears to me that you can not ascend safely from a dive. So what if you were narced? In one post you say your are confident you could safely shut down manifold valves (while impaired on the bottom) and in a later one, imply that you would embolize if you attempted an ascent with no reference.


For most people they can just get a little bouyant, start the ascent, try to watch their computer and if it beeps dump some air. With modern computers you should be able to do an ascent blind and rely upon the beeping of a computer (if all else fails). So what if you are dizzy or scared, the narcosis would surely be gone by 60 feet (within 30-40 seconds) and then you should be able to carefully control an ascent or take other appropriate actions.

Of course, some people believe that computers are terrible and would prefer to watch a depth guage and simultaneously track a watch in order to regulate their ascent rate by comparing depth change and elapsed time. I'm sure that is much easier for an impaired, diver with limited skills and experience.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I think that in the light of day most of us agree. However, those of us who have experienced narcosis know that making the right decision isn't easy.
?

I understand that the most dangerous part of narcosis is poor decisions. I've done stupid things when diving deep and have been lucky on a number of occasions. That is why I think a diver needs to burn into (the reptilian portion) of their brain, that if they feel messed up, then head for the surface, period... If the diver can't or won't make an ascent when needed, then they shouldn't be in the water.

 

[Flightlead]

Your story parallels a recent dive of mine where I had a hard narc hit at 115'. I've had minor narcosis before, but not the on the verge of panic variety. In my case my son looked at me as if I had lost it and led us back to the anchor line. ( I am usually the navigator.)

When instructors talk about narcosis with OW students they usually simply describe the intoxicated feeling and new divers tend to think of it as the happy drunk. With this recent episode, I have started to include the panic & disoriented part of narcosis as well.

Granted, diving on Nitrox will prvide some safety, but when novice divers begin to venture below the 60' mark, they should be aware of all symptoms of narcosis.

I'm glad you didn't take the funny approach to your story. Although there could be some humor, narcosis is really no laughing matter.

never mind redundant post