Death by Diving

[Kingpatzer]

Lynne (and John, and KP): You're rather missing the point. It is not a matter of passing some law that says everyone has to do thus and so. It is more a point of people like you, rather than saying, "too bad, nothing you can do about it," say that, "there are ways to lower your risk of diving accidents, training programs such as those at major universities that meet AAUS standards have been shown to produce divers who are much less likely to ever be in a diving accident ... and by extension a similar result would be expected of the graduates of courses like those of GUE, UTD and similar organizations." As long y'all continue to tell the public that what the assorted major training agencies are doing is good enough, and that nothing else is going to work any better, we have to stay resigned to ideas like: "No matter what happens, there will be a certain percentage of deaths no matter how long we make classes ..." which simply are not true.

I don't believe your last claim. I simply don't. Professional level training applied to non-professionals does not equate to the same safety records that the professionals themselves enjoy.

It may be that the safety record would be better. But that would not be achieved without costs either.

It is true I could simply not teach anymore (or resign myself to teaching a handful of people a year). But that wouldn't change the world. It wouldn't alter the number of students my agency certifies. It wouldn't have the effect you idealistically imagine.

I believe the people I work with are better served by having instructors who do focus on safety and basic skills and reads "mastery" as meaning more than "did the skill once." I would rather my kids or neighbor go to a recreational agency and have the need for continued training and review and respecting limits drilled into their heads than to go get someone who throws up the dvd and leaves the room to go have a smoke while the video plays.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Thal -

It seems like a lot of folks are missing the point. (Lynne, John, KP, Steve, probably me!)

You stated "there are ways to lower your risk of diving accidents, training programs such as those at major universities that meet AAUS standards have been shown to produce divers who are much less likely to ever be in a diving accident ... and by extension a similar result would be expected of the graduates of courses like those of GUE, UTD and similar organizations."

I have also read that the DIR community (represented by GUE, UTD, and similar organizations) has a very low diving accident rate. This tends to support your assertion.

Some questions come to mind -
1) Are any of these training programs appropriate for a non-diver, so that he becomes a safe and proficient diver at initial certification? (I ask, because I - perhaps wrongly - think of them as advanced training for existing divers.)

2) How is the issue of folks who disregard their training solved? (This goes to the "risk-taker" mindset that some agencies won't admit into their training programs.)

Thanks

 

[Kingpatzer]

d -
1) Are any of these training programs appropriate for a non-diver, so that he becomes a safe and proficient diver at initial certification? (I ask, because I - perhaps wrongly - think of them as advanced training for existing ydivers.)

GUE has an entry course. In my view the manual is quite good, and I expect the course is to. If you happen to be lucky enough to have plenty of vacation time to travel to the nearest course, or a ton of extra cash to fly in an instructor, you'll get great training. It'll cost you more than getting the same training from other agencies, but if you do your homework and interview your instructor, you will not necessarily get better training than from the more typical recreational agencies.

2) How is the issue of folks who disregard their training solved? (This goes to the "risk-taker" mindset that some agencies won't admit into their training programs.)

As TSandM notes -- you can't cure stupid. Maybe I'm a horrid person for thinking it, but there are some people who really do get what they deserve, sadly.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't believe your last claim. I simply don't. Professional level training applied to non-professionals does not equate to the same safety records that the professionals themselves enjoy.

What you believe or do not believe has no effect on reality. And your lack of experience means that your beliefs need to be supported by more than a statement that you believe.

It may be that the safety record would be better. But that would not be achieved without costs either.

There is no "may" about it, and of course there are costs. Better stuff usually has higher costs associated with it.

It is true I could simply not teach anymore (or resign myself to teaching a handful of people a year). But that wouldn't change the world. It wouldn't alter the number of students my agency certifies. It wouldn't have the effect you idealistically imagine.

Every journey starts with a single step.

I believe the people I work with are better served by having instructors who do focus on safety and basic skills and reads "mastery" as meaning more than "did the skill once." I would rather my kids or neighbor go to a recreational agency and have the need for continued training and review and respecting limits drilled into their heads than to go get someone who throws up the dvd and leaves the room to go have a smoke while the video plays.

I'd would not have my kid or neighbor go to either. There are much better alternatives out there.

Thal -

It seems like a lot of folks are missing the point. (Lynne, John, KP, Steve, probably me!)

You stated "there are ways to lower your risk of diving accidents, training programs such as those at major universities that meet AAUS standards have been shown to produce divers who are much less likely to ever be in a diving accident ... and by extension a similar result would be expected of the graduates of courses like those of GUE, UTD and similar organizations."

I have also read that the DIR community (represented by GUE, UTD, and similar organizations) has a very low diving accident rate. This tends to support your assertion.

Some questions come to mind -
1) Are any of these training programs appropriate for a non-diver, so that he becomes a safe and proficient diver at initial certification? (I ask, because I - perhaps wrongly - think of them as advanced training for existing divers.) All have appropriate entry-level offerings for non-divers.

2) How is the issue of folks who disregard their training solved? (This goes to the "risk-taker" mindset that some agencies won't admit into their training programs.) I never had that problem and from what I've seen people like that tend to self select out. I suspect the same is true of GUE and UTD programs.

Thanks

 

[Cave Diver]

There is ample evidence that this simply is not true. The safety record of the science community demonstrates that with adequate training and a system of oversight diving fatalities can be virtually eliminated. Now perhaps people are not willing to pay that price to live ... but that's a different question.

I was addressing statements such as:

"No matter what happens, there will be a certain percentage of deaths no matter how long we make classes, no matter what regulations we put in place, or how we try to protect people from themselves."

or

"Short of selective breeding for common sense, I see no way we will ever get rid of deaths through poor judgment or thrill-seeking."

There are ways to solve both these issues.

BTW: there is very little on site supervision except when institutional vessels are involved, so you'd not have to be paying for a supervisor at your favorite local shore diving site.

Somehow, within the science diving community we have been able to do so ... as least our safety record argues that we have.

Well, unless you propose some kind of stringent regulatory system that prevents people from ever getting in the water in scuba gear until they have passed and are diving within such a system, I will stand with the statement I made.

I echo Lynne's sentiment. While your scientific community may be near perfect, unless you find a way to ensure every single person goes through your training and adheres to your stringent standards, I stand by my statement. There will always be that small subset of people that ignores wisdom, advice and warnings.

 

[Kingpatzer]

What you believe or do not believe has no effect on reality. And your lack of experience means that your beliefs need to be supported by more than a statement that you believe.

It doesn't apply to firearm training. Why should it apply to diving?

There are much better alternatives out there.

Not within any reasonable distance of me, there isn't. Perhaps you think the world would be a better place if I couldn't dive due to the total lack of market penetration of your favorite programs. Personally I like a world where I can dive. And even such silly discussions aside, in the world right now the recreational programs exist and they own the diving training market. The question of how to make that training as good as possible is a great question. The question of how to make a Scripps model system the only training model on earth is flat out a waste of time. At least for those of us who prefer to work within reality not within some utopian vision.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

GUE has an entry course. In my view the manual is quite good, and I expect the course is to. If you happen to be lucky enough to have plenty of vacation time to travel to the nearest course, or a ton of extra cash to fly in an instructor, you'll get great training.

Thank you VERY much - I was unaware that their entry course was for non-divers. Do the folks that complete this have the same safety record as full-DIR folks? (Don't know if the stats are even kept this way.)

It'll cost you more than getting the same training from other agencies, and if you do your homework and interview your instructor, you will not necessarily get better training.

I presume that the GUE entry and the better "popular" agencies divers would be comparable based upon this quote. What I mean is, the cream of crop from the PADI/SSI/NAUI/... programs would be comparable to the divers who complete GUE entry. Is this correct?

(Sidenote - I'm aware that some divers assert that a certain agency forbids training beyond agency minimums. I've seen that assertion contested. If it helps keep this thread on track, just drop that agency from the list above (if they are even listed) and go with the others.)

 

[Cave Diver]

Lynne (and John, and KP): You're rather missing the point. It is not a matter of passing some law that says everyone has to do thus and so. It is more a point of people like you, rather than saying, "too bad, nothing you can do about it," say that, "there are ways to lower your risk of diving accidents, training programs such as those at major universities that meet AAUS standards have been shown to produce divers who are much less likely to ever be in a diving accident ... and by extension a similar result would be expected of the graduates of courses like those of GUE, UTD and similar organizations." As long y'all continue to tell the public that what the assorted major training agencies are doing is good enough, and that nothing else is going to work any better, we have to stay resigned to ideas like: "No matter what happens, there will be a certain percentage of deaths no matter how long we make classes ..." which simply are not true.

No Thal, you're missing the point.

There isn't a training agency that I know of that advocates people to not monitor their gas supply. Yet people still run out of gas. I don't care *what* requirements are made of people, there will *always* be someone who bucks the system and does what they want, regardless.

If you know a secret to making every single person follow every single rule every single time, then by all means share your wisdom with the rest of us. World peace can't be far away...

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Aside from what appears to me to be a rather low price that you put on your family's health and welfare, I suggest that it is not even false economy, it is flatass incorrect. How many people are in our family? What sort of diving (e.g., resort, local, wet suit, dry suit) do want them to learn, what will it cost you to fully equip and train them up thorough, say rescue?

Crap - I'm starting to miss the point again!

When I asked if the entry level course produced safe and proficent divers, I was told that GUE and UTD had such courses. Now I'm seeing training up through rescue being recommended.

Is the root problem bad initial training (too easy to get C-card), or insufficient training (not enough cards)?

I'm trying to grasp the point of what needs to change to move the Rec diving safety record into the same league as the scientific community.

And before someone comes back with "both" - how many divers stop taking training after their initial C card?

 

[Thalassamania]

... Is the root problem bad initial training (too easy to get C-card), or insufficient training (not enough cards)? ...

Sounds like the same thing to me, cards aside (and they are irrelevant) I fail to grasp the difference.