Death by Diving

[SC_Hoaty]

Sounds like the same thing to me, cards aside (and they are irrelevant) I fail to grasp the difference.

Sorry - let me try again.

Given that the Rec Diving community has an accident rate that should be lowered, and given that Scientific & DIR communities have accident rates that are admirable, and given that divers are allowed to dive after their initial certification, how can the safety record of the Rec community (including many, many divers with ONLY initial certification) ever approach that of the Sci/DIR community, since the quantity of training is so much greater in the Sci/DIR folks?

It's not clear that the safety improvement comes from superior initial training at all (although that should do nothing but improve the current situation).

When I worked for DuPont, we focused on safety all the time - it was a mindset that was constantly reinforced. It was not a product of initial training.

 

[danvolker]

This may ruffle some feathers, but it has always been a pet peeve of mine.
To me it looks like the Dive Industry set themselves on a path over 10 years ago, to achieve a point when EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the planet would be considered "fit to dive", if they were old enough and had no major medical complication.

In snow skiing, there have always been "never-evers"....go to a place like Vail, and everyone who wants beginning instruction will line up, make some turns or try to walk on skiis without falling.....most will go to a group like snowplow or stem turn of cristie into the hill, or whatever, but typically one lucky instructor will get the "skiiers" that have no coordination, and are considered to be without a chance of ever becoming skiers...the "never-evers"....
they will stay in an almost flat area, and will really never leave this "skiing zone" of safety for them.
Diving has never-evers also, but the remain unrecognized alot of the time. Whether they are unrecognized because of the cost of not selling them more instruction, or more dive gear, or the politically correct issues of pretending that EVERYONE can dive..."never-evers" slip through the cracks, and they are people who are very likely to have a fatal or near fatal accident.
When we see them on boats in S Fla, they are clearly afraid, they are unaware of everything around them, they have horrible bouyancy and trim, breathe like a vaccum, and really don't want to be underwater ( in alot of cases)..some are there because of a spouse, or a parent, or someone who has pushed them into it...Others, may have convinced themself that this is something they need to prove to themself, and the world, if it kills them...and it really could.....
Way too many people today, the non-athlete type in particular, do not understand what danger really is, often until it is too late.
I only mention this, because in the 60's and even to the 70's, the people who wanted to dive WERE REAL ADVENTURERS, they were "often" very athletic ( versus today's new diver candidates where this is maybe 2 to 5 % as very athletic)...it was a much hardier person who wanted to be a diver, back in the old days, and even the ones that decided they did not need training, had better safety records than the new divers of today ( I have ZERO statistics for this( only memories) --it is just what I expect to be borne out if someone wanted to did up stats on this

Regards,
DanV

p.s.

WKPP never had this problem, because only people who really had all the coordination and correct mental attitude etc, were even allowed in to be mentored....if they did not measure up, they were OUT.

p.p.s

The point I was working on here......is that the major training agencies NEED better screening for who CAN NOT be passed in Open Water I. This on the industry side.....On our side, as the divers...the big peer group..the ones who spread the culture and beliefs, the mores and expectations in diving---WE need to Change our culture...along the lines of what Thal was saying earlier...WE need to chastize the undertrained or underskilled--in a nice way of course, but make it clear that they should not be diving without more help doing things right ( no reference to DIR indended
We as divers need to come down on the bad apples in instruction, and on the divers who showcase poor and dangerous skillsets....AND, as a group, we should try to point new and unskilled divers to a higher quality of instruction....I don't think there is any doubt GUE is on a great path for this, but GUE is not available to be a "direct" solution all over the US or the world..but where it is not available, GUE could still be used to set the bar for what is available.

 

[scjoe]

Absent regulation that forces mainstream agencies to upgrade their standards, I just don't see it happening. The agencies have little incentive and the general public is not demanding it. Scientific diver training is not available to the general public, but LA County provides a 12 week advanced diver course every summer to the general public for about $450. It is about 100 hours. You can get both an Advanced and Rescue cert out of it. They are usually not overwhelmed with sign ups.

 

[danvolker]

Absent regulation that forces mainstream agencies to upgrade their standards, I just don't see it happening. The agencies have little incentive and the general public is not demanding it. Scientific diver training is not available to the general public, but LA County provides a 12 week advanced diver course every summer to the general public for about $450. It is about 100 hours. You can get both an Advanced and Rescue cert out of it. They are usually not overwhelmed with sign ups.

This would be the norm in most aspects of our lives...but not necessarily so in diving.

If the relatively ENORMOUS group of recreational divers here on SCUBABOARD, began a demand for a culture change...a "Recreational Renaissance", they/WE , "should" have far more impact than the handful of us DIR divers back in the mid and late 90's, who were trying to change cave and tech diving....

Regards,
DanV

 

[Thalassamania]

But if they're happy with the food at McDonalds, if they like driving Yugos, there's not a whole lot you can (or for that matter should) do. Thought I must admit that list of gear borders on child abuse in my book.

 

[hudson]

Cost issues aside, you can't herd people towards more in-depth OW programs when they are hardly available in many regions. There just isn't one in or around St. Louis, for example, ever since YMCA closed up shop here (and even that probably wouldn't have met your standards)

Now you need to not only convince the candidates that the classes available locally are no good (even though thousands of c-card holders are doing just fine from their POV) and they should spend more time and money on a better one, but also make them schedule and travel to do so.

I can see the exchange now:
"So what class did you take?"
"Um, PADI OW"
"Ah, but didn't you say that wasn't safe?"
"Yes, but.. you see I'm smart, I'm figuring it out on my own...for all I know you may be pretty stupid, so you shouldn't take the chance"

 

[Thalassamania]

Cost issues aside, you can't herd people towards more in-depth OW programs when they are hardly available in many regions. There just isn't one in or around St. Louis, for example, ever since YMCA closed up shop here (and even that probably wouldn't have met your standards)

Now you need to not only convince the candidates that the classes available locally are no good (even though thousands of c-card holders are doing just fine from their POV) and they should spend more time and money on a better one, but also make them schedule and travel to do so.

I can see the exchange now:
"So what class did you take?"
"Um, PADI OW"
"Ah, but didn't you say that wasn't safe?"
"Yes, but.. you see I'm smart, I'm figuring it out on my own...for all I know you may be pretty stupid, so you shouldn't take the chance"

I don't remember suggesting herding anyone. I objected to two statements:

No matter what happens, there will be a certain percentage of deaths no matter how long we make classes, no matter what regulations we put in place, or how we try to protect people from themselves.

Short of selective breeding for common sense, I see no way we will ever get rid of deaths through poor judgment or thrill-seeking.

I supplied data that showed that both these statements were, at least, a bit extreme.

I suggested that it would be more helpful to the entire community to state that there were better alternatives to conventional recreational training rather than to throw our hands up in the air and say that there is nothing that can be done.

Now what's your issue?

 

[Jax]

To throw a monkey wrench into the training discussion . . . where does attitude come in?

My experience in other training environments says that you can train someone to a point as small as a gnat's butt, but if the attitude isn't there, stupidity ensues.

The OP mentioned the people that simply failed to follow what they were taught. Is that a failure of the training? Or a failure of the individual? And if it is the individual's . . . who can adjust an attitude that says, "I don't have to follow the rules."?

 

[hudson]

I suggested that it would be more helpful to the entire community to state that there were better alternatives to conventional recreational training rather than to throw our hands up in the air and say that there is nothing that can be done.

Now what's your issue?

I think we have different definitions of the problem. There is no argument that a better trained person is a lot less likely to be a fatality and that training is available "out there". Stating such can definitely help the few the community can reach.

But if you are going to make a dent in the overall number of deaths, then that better training should be widely available. My issue is better training doesn't help reduce the deaths if you can't make the trainer and the student meet, if the barrier to entry is relatively too high for the diver candidate.

 

[Thalassamania]

To throw a monkey wrench into the training discussion . . . where does attitude come in?

My experience in other training environments says that you can train someone to a point as small as a gnat's butt, but if the attitude isn't there, stupidity ensues.

The OP mentioned the people that simply failed to follow what they were taught. Is that a failure of the training? Or a failure of the individual? And if it is the individual's . . . who can adjust an attitude that says, "I don't have to follow the rules."?

Attitude can be inculcated during training, in fact it is an essential part of good training.

I think we have different definitions of the problem. There is no argument that a better trained person is a lot less likely to be a fatality and that training is available "out there". Stating such can definitely help the few the community can reach.

But if you are going to make a dent in the overall number of deaths, then that better training should be widely available. My issue is better training doesn't help reduce the deaths if you can't make the trainer and the student meet, if the barrier to entry is relatively too high for the diver candidate.

It is not my goal to make more of a dent in the overall number of deaths, I already do my part. I already teach about as much as I want to. I just want people to know that there are "better ways," so that they are informed consumers. Most people have no idea of what alternatives there are to the PADI LDS down the road.