Deep Diving on Air

[MXGratefulDiver]

That really cracked me up... but just for clarification...I thought that the DIR guys were the ones drinking the cool aid???? It gets soo confusing on the internet.

There are Cool-Aid drinkers in every facet of diving ... or any other activity for that matter.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Let's talk abut this call for an "alternate" deep air forum by its real name.

There have been many deep air debates over the years--in fact, for a while it was tiresomely repetitious, with the same arguments getting brought up over and over again. Those debates typically focused on the practices of people who do such dives within the context of their training for it. As has been mentioned in this thread several times, there are agency and research-supported norms for deep air diving, controversial though they may be. TDI's Extended Range course is almost obsolete (by their admission), but it still exists. PSAI still has its protocols. The U.S. Navy air tables still exist. It is possible to receive training to dive deep air within the training protocols of those agencies. Such discussions are within the TOS and take place so often many people are tired of them.

The debates really focus on one and only one question: air or helium mixes at those depths. That is because every other aspect of those dives (amount of gas, redundancy, equipment, decompression gases, training requirements) follows the generally agreed-upon protocols of technical diving.

As for solo diving, although it is controversial, it has the blessing of at least one well-regarded agency, and there are classes offered for it around the world to ensure that it is done within a standard of safety.

In contrast, no agency supports the kind of bounce diving being advocated here. There are no protocols for it. There are no standards of safety. There is no reference to research regarding DCS and decompression theory. We have seen nothing of that being offered here on this or any other thread--it's all "go deep and have fun!"

So when you say you want an "alternate" forum for deep air diving, you are really saying you want a place for people like VDGM to advocate practices that are not endorsed by any agency and that are not supported by research. In fact, you want a protected site to discuss practices that are opposed by all agencies.

It might be interesting if one of you would propose some protocols or some standards for what you consider to be safe bounce diving. Then maybe we could get an idea of whether it has any legitimacy.

I am for discussion of these topics in forums like this, for it gives us a chance to explain why all agencies oppose those practices and why research does not support them. I don't see why an activity that violates the ScubaBoard TOS should be given its own sanctioned location on the site.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You missed the point:

It prevents it in the Solo forum because they can lose their access privileges — the only advantage of an Opt-in forum I can think of.

In fact, I didn't miss that point ... I have already stated in this thread (more than once) that I wouldn't find an opt-in forum objectionable. You just posted one reason why ... another is that it would provide a centralized place for these discussions to occur ... so they wouldn't end up in all the public forums like they currently do.

Not really, it is the high ratio of dogma to factual information that makes it tedious and generally uninformative. If negative comments dealt with risk analysis it would be productive compared to “only fools” would consider it. These subjects are far less dangerous than tech and rebreather diving? Why are they treated so differently?

Well, mainly because a high percentage of the people who are doing it ... and who are advocating it in these threads ... are not trained to do it properly. Several of us have already made that point.

I have no objection to people doing deep air dives if they're properly trained and equipped. I see a big difference, however, when they're doing deep air dives without training or redundancy.

DIR is a little different because it is such a regimented system with a few people that project an unjustifiable attitude based on indoctrination rather than real experience.

Well, years back the DIR folks were given their own forum because it became impossible to discuss anything about it in the main forums without a predictable backlash from people who knew nothing more about it than the name ... which they found objectionable ... sound familiar? The result was that the hard-core anti's simply followed the DIR folks into their forum and continued to be disruptive ... to the point where the folks who truly wanted to discuss DIR stopped posting on ScubaBoard and went elsewhere.

There are lots of solutions that are proven to work.

We're in complete agreement on that statement ... "solutions" being the operative word. In scuba diving, a "solution" involves proper planning and preparation to mitigate risks, regardless of the gas and equipment being used.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In contrast, no agency supports the kind of bounce diving being advocated here. There are no protocols for it. There are no standards of safety. There is no reference to research regarding DCS and decompression theory.

... a recent post advocating this type of diving suggests that research regarding DCS and decompression theory involves drinking a beer and taking an aspirin ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Akimbo]

Let's talk abut this call for an "alternate" deep air forum by its real name…..

Way too limited. Why not include all forms of controversial & experimental diving outside the realm of “well-regarded” diving agencies? It was not that long ago that tech and deep wreck diving was universally and boisterously condemned.

…In contrast, no agency supports the kind of bounce diving being advocated here. There are no protocols for it. There are no standards of safety...

That is exactly the reason we should be discussing it in an unemotional and solution-oriented environment. Brett Gilliam, founder of TDI, is the modern poster child of these controversial techniques. Sure he has exceptional experience and intellectual attributes. But so do many military and commercial divers. Nearly all current techniques in use were controversial before the training agencies figured out how to make money at it, dumb them down, and avoid law suits.

 

[Hank49]

... a recent post advocating this type of diving suggests that research regarding DCS and decompression theory involves drinking a beer and taking an aspirin ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If you're referring to my post you're bending the statement I made just a bit. I believe that was my recent post on page 15. I specifically stated that he DID NOT advocate that method. Only that it's what he does.

The threads about deep air diving will continue to be posted. They have a long history already. If you're saying that there is no place for a forum on this type of diving, then what's next? Delete all the threads that bring it up? One way or the other, it will be discussed.

I won't dive like that anymore. But if someone is thinking about it, they can go to that forum and get information. There needs to be a balance here. On one hand I tend to agree that people should be discouraged from doing it. On the other, it would be a shame if someone finds themselves at 190 feet or so, panics and gets into more trouble because of all the "you're going to die" comments on here.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

ScubaBoard has in its Terms of Service the following statement ...

ScubaBoard Moderators may, at their discretion, remove any post which advocates unsafe diving practices, as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world. While ScubaBoard does not take an official position on these matters, ScubaBoard does encourage users to maintain safe diving practices. You and you alone are responsible for your diving safety.

Intentional violaton of its own Terms of Service would make defending themselves against such a suit rather difficult ...

Well, the operative word in that underlined TOS is most obviously "may".

IMHO, there are dozens, if not hundreds of posts, documenting what the SB Staff obviously considers unsafe diving practices, and obviously in such documentation style that Staff feels the unsafe diving practice is being advocated, yet those threads/posts did not get removed. Instead, Staff just "dogpiles" and belittles the posters, even when the activity is something that happens with very regular frequency and is often led by "Pro's" that the major training agencies continue to validate with teaching credentials.



There have been a number of SB members, or good friends / dive buddies of SB members, who have died recently diving beyond their training, yet often SB Staff has pretty much defended them and SB has not been sued over such "advocacy" of unsafe diving practices.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... Staff just "dogpiles" and belittles the posters...

Care to cite a specific? With a link to the post(s)?

There have been a number of SB members, or good friends / dive buddies of SB members, who have died recently diving beyond their training, yet often SB Staff has pretty much defended them...

Cite? Link?


It ain't that I doubt you, but if you're going to paint with such a broad brush I want to actually see what you're painting.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

...It was not that long ago that tech and deep wreck diving were universally and boisterously condemned....

That, at least, is too true. Nitrox was even illegal in at least one Caribbean country! Right up 'til they realized divers were going elsewhere and they were losing money.

Rick

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The threads about deep air diving will continue to be posted. They have a long history already. If you're saying that there is no place for a forum on this type of diving, then what's next?

Well ... what's next may be reading what I actually DID say ... because I've posted here ... in this thread ... multiple times ... that I would not object to there being an opt-in forum for deep air diving.

How many more times must I say it before you and others stop putting words in my mouth?

Disagreeing with your viewpoint isn't the same as denying your right to have it, yanno ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)