Deep Diving on Air

[boulderjohn]

Brett Gilliam, founder of TDI, is the modern poster child of these controversial techniques. Sure he has exceptional experience and intellectual attributes. But so do many military and commercial divers. Nearly all current techniques in use were controversial before the training agencies figured out how to make money at it, dumb them down, and avoid law suits.

Brett Gilliam has publicly stated that those techniques he used back in the day are not suitable for divers. The agency he founded does not endorse them and teaches very different techniques from what you describe. (I have the TDI Extended Range manual right next to me at the moment of you would like some specifics.)

There have been a number of SB members, or good friends / dive buddies of SB members, who have died recently diving beyond their training, yet often SB Staff has pretty much defended them and SB has not been sued over such "advocacy" of unsafe diving practices.

I echo the call for one specific example of this.

The closest I can come to this in my memory is Bruce, who went by the user name Cave Bum. He started a very controversial thread that was quite reminiscent of this one. It involved solo diving and his belief that people should be trained for it. The thread was as contentious as this one. It came to a sudden halt when Bruce intentionally separated from his buddy and went his own way while on a cave dive. After his body was recovered, the thread he had started on solo diving pretty much came to a halt out of deference. On the other hand, the incident and his decision to separate were fully analyzed in the appropriate forums.

I feel pretty confident that if I were to die on a dive, the circumstances would be as fully dissected as with anyone else, as well it should be.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, the operative word in that underlined TOS is most obviously "may".

IMHO, there are dozens, if not hundreds of posts, documenting what the SB Staff obviously considers unsafe diving practices, and obviously in such documentation style that Staff feels the unsafe diving practice is being advocated, yet those threads/posts did not get removed. Instead, Staff just "dogpiles" and belittles the posters, even when the activity is something that happens with very regular frequency and is often led by "Pro's" that the major training agencies continue to validate with teaching credentials.



There have been a number of SB members, or good friends / dive buddies of SB members, who have died recently diving beyond their training, yet often SB Staff has pretty much defended them and SB has not been sued over such "advocacy" of unsafe diving practices.

Wow ... I'd like to see some examples to back those comments up. Dogpiling is something that's generally frowned upon by staff here. The one time I recall it involving a staff member, he was rather publicly taken to account for it.

Let's keep in mind that "staff" are not a bunch of automatons who march in lockstep with each other ... they're as varied in their perspectives and behavior as the rest of us. Also let's clarify that unless someone is actively moderating a thread, they're as free as anyone else to express themselves. For the most part, I think we currently have the most disciplined and fair-minded staff I've seen on ScubaBoard in a decade. But like the rest of us, they have opinions which they will each express in their own way. I'd be hard put, however, to recall a recent incident of a staff member belittling someone or "dogpiling" ... and I spend a lot of time here. So if you have some examples to back up those accusations, I'd like to see them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Let's make sure we understand our terms.

Dogpiling occurs when a group of like-minded people make a conscious strategic decision to post in large numbers for the purpose of overwhelming someone else.

This should be differentiated from the situation in which someone posts something with which an overwhelming number of people feel a spontaneous need to post their disagreement.

 

[Hank49]

Well ... what's next may be reading what I actually DID say ... because I've posted here ... in this thread ... multiple times ... that I would not object to there being an opt-in forum for deep air diving.

How many more times must I say it before you and others stop putting words in my mouth?

Disagreeing with your viewpoint isn't the same as denying your right to have it, yanno ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You totally ignored the main point of my post and twisted it into me putting words into your mouth, ignoring the fact that you misquoted me regarding beer and aspirin.
Sorry for the confusion. When I stated "If you're saying that there is no place for a forum on this type of diving, then what's next? Delete all the threads that bring it up? One way or the other, it will be discussed"., it wasn't directed at you.

 

[knowone]

The fact of the matter is that nothing is for free and free discussion ultimately undermines the goal which one is attempting to achieve

Serious people have Books Manuals Dives that contain after much dissemination more information about this hit and miss science than could ever fully be quantified

No bookshelf can't read haven't been diving well there's always the internet where if you can't find all virtually immediately then concoct a plan to suit YOU because it's You that will be deciphering those fifty numbers when you're blind with narcosis then who's foolin who because what are you gonna discuss if you don't know haven't been there and have no idea how to get there or any right to assume you should be anywhere near the place in the first place or let alone heavens to murgatroyd suggesting as a shortcut to diving and training impressionable new people follow or be guided by you in YOUR FOLLY

On the internet



Leave :sblogo:
alooone



except for those weighting threads where if you fart you hit the bottom or yawn and hit your head on the boat

 

[boulderjohn]

Way too limited. Why not include all forms of controversial & experimental diving outside the realm of “well-regarded” diving agencies? It was not that long ago that tech and deep wreck diving was universally and boisterously condemned.

Let's look at the terms you used.

1. "Experimental" refers to innovative methods and suggests some kind of review of the experimental methods being tested with an eye toward seeking refinement and improvement. I have seen nothing like that here. You are talking about old methods taht used to be done decades ago. All we hear now about it is "go deep and have fun."

There was a lot of experimenting done with technical diving over the past few decades, and the results are in. That's why the tech diving protocols are so close to being uniform across all agencies. For example, in the 1970s Sheck Exley examined the data on cave deaths as well as the practices and gear with which he and his friends were experimenting and came up with protocols that are still pretty much intact today. One of those protocols is the rejection of diving to depths beyond the diver's level of training.

Can you describe the kind of experimental processes being used with regard to deep bounce dives on air?

2. "Controversial" in this case seems to mean the methods that were rejected by research over the last decades, including the rejection of diving to depths beyond the diver's level of training.

3. "Well-regarded" was my term, which you quoted. In using that term I really meant anything any sane person would agree is an agency. I wanted to exclude a bogus agency any idiot can form in the next two minutes by stringing some words together. For example, there is an agency called Scuba Divers of America. It consists of one person, and he formed the agency so he could continue to instruct after NAUI kicked him out. It is a total scam designed to fleece unsuspecting students out of their money and give them a worthless certification. I am talking about anything other than that sort of thing.

A legitimate agency has to have insurance. It can't just get scuba insurance by sending in a check. The insurance company will check to make sure the agency has legitimacy, and in doing so it will check its standards. I know that when UTD was formed, it had trouble convincing its insurer that its OW course was insurable because it did not include CESA.

 

[Gilldiver]

That, at least, is too true. Nitrox was even illegal in at least one Caribbean country! Right up 'til they realized divers were going elsewhere and they were losing money.

Rick

It was more like when the island boats and resorts figured out that the avg diver could only stay at 60' with an aluminum 80 for 30-40 minutes no matter what gas they had. Then they figured out that these divers would pay extra for the Nitrox stuff. Same dive time but more $$$ in the pocket.........

 

[Tigerman]

30-40 minutes at 60ft on an al80 is not what I call an average diver..

 

[Akimbo]

Brett Gilliam has publicly stated that those techniques he used back in the day are not suitable for divers….

Not suitable for divers? What divers? I have recently had several long conversations with Bret about number of techniques that are not suitable for most divers, but not all divers. Your characterization is inconsistent with our discussions.

Bret’s writing is more indicative that any single statement. It trends towards identifying problems and analyzing solutions, not single procedure dictums. I personally believe that this methodology produces divers who are far better equipped for surviving underwater than those adhering to rote indoctrination. Nobody has all the best answers. Not me, the US Navy, NOAA, the ADC (Associated Diving Contractors), or a bunch of different Boards in the business of selling merit badges to divers.

…The agency he founded does not endorse them and teaches very different techniques from what you describe. ...

True. But it is also true that most of the techniques the agency he founded were taboo at the time the company was founded. Those techniques continue to evolve along with everything else in life. IMHO, the force of his personality made the company overcome and flourish. That is not to say that it would not have happened anyway, but probably would have taken much longer.

Without continual reevaluation of limits and technique we would still be watching divers in canvas suits and hammered copper helmets fighting octopus and gathering sponges instead of conversing on Scubaboard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not suitable for divers? What divers? I have recently had several long conversations with Bret about number of techniques that are not suitable for most divers, but not all divers. Your characterization is inconsistent with our discussions.

Bret’s writing is more indicative that any single statement. It trends towards identifying problems and analyzing solutions, not single procedure dictums. I personally believe that this methodology produces divers who are far better equipped for surviving underwater than those adhering to rote indoctrination. Nobody has all the best answers. Not me, the US Navy, NOAA, the ADC (Associated Diving Contractors), or a bunch of different Boards in the business of selling merit badges to divers.

... and the vast majority of your audience on ScubaBoard is going to be people who were trained by those "merit badge" people.

I can understand that exceptionally trained, experienced and qualified divers such as yourself and Brett Gilliam have no difficulty with this style of diving. Folks like the ones we've been reading about in the A&I forum recently, however, do ... as evidenced by the recent deaths and injuries they inflicted on themselves attempting to dive that way.

I can understand a desire to have a place reserved for discussions about this style of diving. The problem, however, is how it's being promoted. I've not seen anyone in any of those threads make an attempt to identify problems or analyze solutions. It's mostly just chest-thumping, putdowns of anyone who disagrees with you, and making snide comments (like you just did) about the perceived inadequacies of recreational training agencies.

If the deep air advocates were a bit more into problem-solving and a bit less into chest-thumping then perhaps your arguments would have more merit ... but, frankly, nobody's really interested in how much more qualified you are than the rest of us ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)