Disappointed in LDS

[SolarStorm]

My wife decided to join my daughter and myself diving. I should have signed her up at the same Shop my daughter and I used, but its an hour drive and their pool times are less than optimum.

I screwed up and changed shops. I have been through 2 OWD courses each with 5 or fewer people. There is actually another shop sharing the pool with my wifes class. (large college pool) It also has 5 people in its class with 2 instructors.

My wifes class has 15 with 2 instructors. They are rushing through material while spending a hour today showing videos of their shark dives. The pool is exceptionally crowded and individual attention is minimized. I actually havent seen a lot of verification of skills presented. And with only 3 hours left tomorrow, I am not sure all skills will be covered.

She was nervous about diving to start with and this experience has not helped. I have already talked to her about us doing some of our own pool time as she wants to spend some time practicing some of the skills. instead of rushing through them. This class size forces a very rushed pace especially if there are a few timid students. (there are, and my wife is one of them)

I am taking a break now as we just finished reviewing the dive tables, as she said they had to rush through them class (see shark video above)

Couple of questions:

1. Is this a usual class size and I have just seen the exceptions?
2. Does PADI have a maximum student/instructor ratio?

In the future I will remember to ask what the class size actually is, along with the class hours. The two guys teaching are kinda making it up as they go along.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As to whether this is a usual class size the answer can be yes depending on the instructor(s). Is it common? Not in my area. Is it within standards? Unfortunately yes. My own agency allows me to take up to 10 students at one time in the pool space permitting. Would I ever do this? NO. My maximum number of OW students I will take in the pool is 4. And not just because of space. There are standards that must be met as to skills, practice, and proficiency. The agency's and my own.

What you are describing sounds like one of the major complaints that many instructors from every agency are seeing more and more of, and becoming disgusted with it. This is not the kind of class your wife, anyone who is nervous about the sport, or frankly anyone period should be in. If they are indeed as you say "making it up as they go along" call them on it. It's your wife and it's her safety. Ask to see the standards for the course in writing from whatever agency they are teaching through. Ask them why they are doing this and what their reasons for rushing her through are.

They are indeed within standards as far as class sizes go. That does not mean those standards are right for every student. In this case they clearly are not. Ask them why they are showing videos of their dives instead of teaching her to dive. Or wait, I bet she has been doing lots of self study with the books and with you helping her. So why are you paying these guys? There are threads in the new divers forum on how to pick a good class. I have chapters in my new book dealing with selecting an instructor, shop, and training program because of stuff like this.

I don't know how many sessions she is supposed to do but clearly there are not enough. If all the skills are not covered then standards are not met and you have a reason to complain to PADI. I spend 16 hours in the classroom and 16 in the pool over 6-8 weeks. You say the shop you were happy with is an hour drive. How many times a week? My last OW class drove 2 hours each way twice a week for 5 weeks and once a week for 3 more. I did some longer classroom sessions to try and cut down on the drives but with a 12yr old and 16 yr old I was not going to cut down on pool sessions. They did this after interviewing me in the manner I recommend and deciding that this was the way they wanted their daughters trained.

Don't let them get away with not giving your wife the attention and training she needs and you did pay for.

 

[Bogie]

You're the consumer. If you are not pleased with the training or ratio, speak up and talk to them and see if you can work out a solution. If they don't meet your needs choose another instructor. It really does not matter what PADI standards are if you, as the consumer are dissatisfied. You can choose an instructor that will have smaller ratios and give more personal attention. I am sure you can find an instructor that will meet your needs.

 

[soltari675]

My class last September only had 4 students and it was comfortable. I learned easily, never felt rushed, and had a great time. I agree that there should not be more than 4-5 students per instructor at a time. Just for safety reasons alone.

 

[k ellis]

The place where I was certified typically does teach about 5 students at a time but I have seen them take about 15 out at once. They usually offset this though by bringing more instructors in which I have seen 3 instructors and up to 5 dive masters all in the water at once.

It is correct though with the standards. I would never expect a place to lower their standards for me but at the same time I know that if I am not able to learn comfortably it can result in a bad thing.

I have seen a class go out once with 4 divers all at once. Of the 4 that were there only one finished the course. This was simply because it was an improvised location to learn with visibility being measured only in inches not feet.

Its ok to ask questions and remember the most important thing of all is its your money dont spend it unless you are happy with what you see and feel is a good deal for you!

 

[Hallmac]

Since you seem to be happy with the training you had at the other shop, why not call them and see if you can schedule a " Refresher course" for the three of you together.

Inform them that your wife has just finished the OW course with another shop out of necessity, and you would like to get the whole family on the same page with a trusted Instructor.

It would give your wife more time in the pool, get her used to diving with you, and offer her a more private setting to ask questions or work out a few kinks. With it being a one time session, scheduling a pool session may be easier to do for both sides. It would also offer a different instructor with a different presentation, that may help reinforce things she learned in class or missed.

Comfort comes from repetition, if you let the instructor teach, and act like a student home life and your new diving life may be a lot more peaceful and pleasant too!

 

[tkdgodess]

Padi standards says it's 10-1 confined water, 8-1 openwater. My shop has a 5-1 policy, and always a DM in the ocean if it is 5-1. I am teaching AOW this weekend, it will be 7-2 student to instructor.(and a divemaster candidate) Sometimes we have several classes at once in the pool, say OW, AOW, drysuit orientation, but maintain our ratios, it IS alot of people in the pool, but normally we plan who is doing what and what part of the pool is needed/when. It takes good teamwork.

As far as skills, assuming you are doing a Padi course.. the confined water skills are exactly outlined in the back of each chapter, pretty much exactly how the instructor is suppose to sequence them. Read the confined water preview for each module she has done in the pool, if something was missed or not mastered she is owed more pool time IMO.

 

[SolarStorm]

Since you seem to be happy with the training you had at the other shop, why not call them and see if you can schedule a " Refresher course" for the three of you together.

Inform them that your wife has just finished the OW course with another shop out of necessity, and you would like to get the whole family on the same page with a trusted Instructor.

Thanks for the replys everyone. Already on this page. My mistake on trying something new with my wife. This was a 3 day course and this is the last day. I cant call the shop today (closed) and she didnt want me to talk with the instructors. To be fair, she said they are "nice" guys, just a little overwhelmed with the size and skill difference in the class. Although one comment she made "Why would you show a shark dive to new divers, some of which are already nervous?" We have had lots of talks about sharks, especially after I saw my first one. She understands, but she has also seen jaws, and showing these amazingly powerful creatures to new nervous divers is not what I would have done. Turtles, rays, dolphins, even an eel and some really pretty coral; yea that would probably excite the new diver a little more...

 

[Jim Baldwin]

Like the other posters I also do not like large groups even though it is allowed. I will not take a student for OW dives who clearly does not have a good mastery of the skills or simply request more pool time to get their comfort level where it needs to be.

I would ceratinly have a talk with the owner/management about more one on one. And tell the folks that the shark video did little to help the class. There is a time and place for getting people excited about diving but not when it takes away from classroom time and training.

 

[SeaHorse81]

To be fair, she said they are "nice" guys, just a little overwhelmed with the size and skill difference in the class.

They are "overwhelmed" with the class size and range of skill levels that they, themselves put together. I would guess that these instructors are either being forced into this situation by an employer, or do not possess the level of wisdom I personally would hope for in my instructor. Either way, the students lose.

I think this can serve as an example of an element of diving that will always be important in maximizing safety: If something feels wrong, pay attention to the feeling, even if you don't think you can justify it or explain it. Sometimes it means looking for more input, as you're doing here. Sometimes it means changing shops or instructors or courses. Sometimes it means calling a dive. The point is that it's an important feeling that you should consider part of your situational awareness as a diver, rather than trying to talk yourself out of it.