Dive Master required on every dive?

[padiscubapro]

Thanks for the replies. I was aware of the limitations of recreational diving standards onto governmental entities, but as I had never heard of this claim, became concerned.

The ANDI instructor also told him we weren't allowed to fill our own tanks as we're not trained and certified to do so. We have a $50,000 Bauer Unicus III compressor, which does constant air monitering, and we do air quality testing with every three months with a professional contractor.

We fill not only SCUBA, but all our firefighting packs. Of course, we don't do visuals or hydros ourselves, but have them done as needed.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel we're competent to do air filling ourselves.

I appreciate the advice from you all, and also sent this link to my DRI instructor. I'm sure she'll be pleased!

Thanks

it sounds as if you are only hearing or getting part of the rules..

OSHA requires that all persons filling pressure vessels be trained to do so.. Many scuba shops don't meet these requirements either.. (there are several agencies that have formal fill station training... ANDI is one of them)

There may be additional local requirements as well...

For example here in NYC you would need a compressor permit and the persons whose name is on is is responsible..

alot of times Divemaster, "master Diver" and "Person in charge" are used interchangibly.. Again there might be specific reqirements by the locality as to who is qualified to do such.. In many places there is the requirement to have a specific person running the scene with spefic amount of standby divers for each diver in the water.. There is no one standard, just a recommendation.. Even if you meet these requirements you could still be in violation of OSHA.. if your getting paid in any form then it most likely falls under OSHA commercial diving rules (osha has specific exemptions for diver training) , if not then there is alot more variability..

 

[Thalassamania]

Tell Mr. ANDI to go to hell, he has not idea what he is talking about, he is just mouthing self-serving horse pucky that he accidentally overheard and misunderstood when the the adults were talking.

[FONT=arial,helvetica]OSHA exempts, "Search, rescue and related public safety diving by or under the control of a governmental agency." OSHA received a number of comments from persons engaged in diving incidental to police and public safety functions, and the Agency concluded that an exclusion was appropriate for such applications. The "by or under the control of a governmental agency" language is intended to make the exclusion applicable to all divers whose purpose is to provide search, rescue, or public safety diving services under the direction and control of a governmental agency (e.g.; local, state, federal government) regardless of whether or not such divers are, strictly speaking, government employees. Diving contractors who occasionally perform such services privately on an emergency basis, and who are not under the control of a governmental agency engaging their services, do not come under this exclusion. Such divers may, however, be covered by the provision concerning application of the standard in an emergency. In excluding these search and rescue operations, OSHA determined that safety and health regulation of the police and related functions are best carried out by the individual States or their political subdivisions. It is pointed out that this exclusion does not apply when work other than search, rescue and related public safety diving is performed (e.g., police divers repairing a pier).

BTW: An intelligently run program will always have someone desginate as a Dive Supervisor on site running things, but that may be the lead buddy.
[/FONT]

 

[BladesRobinson]

OSHA requires that all persons filling pressure vessels be trained to do so..

OSHA exempts, "Search, rescue and related public safety diving by or under the control of a governmental agency."

The OSHA exemption above only applies to the Subpart T 1910.410 Commercial Diving Standards and addresses the last part of padiscubapro's post. With regrets, I have not read the OSHA requirement padiscubapro makes reference to. I know 1910.410 does not address "filling pressure vessels" and would like to learn more. It is possible that OSHA grants a "public safety exemption" to that standard also but I would like to read it for myself.

To padiscubapro ... Can you provide additional information? What OSHA standard regulates "filling pressure vessels?"

It is my opinion when someone has "ANDI, PADI, SDI, TDI, Trimix CCR Instructor Trainer, ANDI Instructor Trainer Director" after his name, it may be worth "listening." I would enjoy an opportunity to learn from a peer in the industry.

Thanks in advance.

Blades Robinson, Director
Dive Rescue International
Dive Rescue International - Water Rescue Training & Equipment

 

[mason]

Our team was initially trained by the New Mexico State Police dive team, from their PADI instructor. We've also received training from an IDEA instructor, TDI (nitrox) instructor, and most recently DRI. Nearly all members are at rec. Rescue diver, or PSD/DRT1, or both. We've also been on mutual search/recoveries with NMSP teams and NM Task Force One search dogs. Not once in all these missions has anyone asked who the certified Divemaster was and if he/she had insurance.

If it is recommended to have an individual certified in air station/pressurized cylinder filling, I have no problem with that. In fact, I'll send someone after the new fiscal year.

But, based on the replies and information you all have given me thus far, and unless Blades or my PSSI tells me I need to have a PSSI or rec. Divemaster or rec. Instructor WITH insurance on each training session or callout dive, I think we're fine.

 

[muddiver]

It wouldn't make a difference anyway because PSD and paid diving work is pretty much excluded from the typical "recreational SCUBA professional" liability insurance as is training in commercial diving by recreational certification agencies.

 

[Thalassamania]

The OSHA exemption above only applies to the Subpart T 1910.410 Commercial Diving Standards and addresses the last part of padiscubapro's post. With regrets, I have not read the OSHA requirement padiscubapro makes reference to. I know 1910.410 does not address "filling pressure vessels" and would like to learn more. It is possible that OSHA grants a "public safety exemption" to that standard also but I would like to read it for myself.

To padiscubapro ... Can you provide additional information? What OSHA standard regulates "filling pressure vessels?"

It is my opinion when someone has "ANDI, PADI, SDI, TDI, Trimix CCR Instructor Trainer, ANDI Instructor Trainer Director" after his name, it may be worth "listening." I would enjoy an opportunity to learn from a peer in the industry.

Thanks in advance.

Blades Robinson, Director
Dive Rescue International
Dive Rescue International - Water Rescue Training & Equipment

I've done a Google search and called a friend at OSHA (neither of which are guaranteed to prove that a regulation does not exist) and I cannot find any such requirement beyond things like this (from Oregon State OSHA, with reference in this case to oxygen and hydrogen systems):

(4) Operating instruction.
(i) Written instructions. For installation which require any operation of equipment by the user, legible instructions shall be maintained at operating locations.
(ii) Attendant. A qualified person shall be in attendance at all times ...

or this from Cal OSHA referring to LPG systems:

Safe Operating Procedures - At least one qualified attendant properly trained, must remain at the controls at all times while transfer of the LPG is undertaken.

So there is likely something to it, but "properly trained" and "Nationally Certified" are two completely different concepts. As we both know from our OSHA studies, being one says absolutely nothing about being the other.

 

[BladesRobinson]

...unless Blades or my PSSI tells me I need to have a PSSI or rec. Divemaster or rec. Instructor WITH insurance on each training session or callout dive, I think we're fine.

MASON,

I have good news. You are fine as long nothing goes wrong! That is really the bottom line.

The fact of the matter is, if something bad happens, it won't make a difference who you have supervising the dive. If something happens, then authorities (or attorneys) will say that the supervisor/divemaster/instructor (pick one) wasn't qualified enough, wasn't properly trained, or didn't do his job supervising.

The goal of EVERY public safety dive team should be to have someone supervise the dive operation who has experience, training and the "real world" knowledge to keep team members safe.

The other half of the equation is having safe divers who are well trained, physically and medically fit, equipped with good equipment and having the ability, skill and knowledge needed to make the proper dive/no dive decision.

I have said on more than one occasion, "If you give good people good training and good equipment, they'll make good decisions and have good results."

At Dive Rescue International, we work hard to recruit good divers and provide them with good training. For more than 30 years this has been a recipe good public safety divers/teams. Kudos to MASON and his Public Safety Scuba Instructor.

Blades Robinson, Director
Dive Rescue International
DiveRescueIntl.com

 

[tc]

Compressed gases (general requirements). - 1910.101

HM 172.704

These are probably the sections that are being referred to- 1910.101a requires that employers provide inspections of compressed gas cylinders and refers to 172.704 (in part) for description.

PSI offers a short class in cylinder handling and another in fill station operations, if I recall correctly any PSI inspector can instruct the classes.

It's a simple course and probably well worth the effort in order to make sure the employees know the right way to do things and avoid accidents. Might offer some liability mitigation for an employer should an accident ever occur too.

The PSI / PCI has good articles on cylinders and many good links.