Dive OPs who enforce 24 hour cancelation policy but can cancel last minute??

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bladder

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I'm a Fish!
Hi new here, going to skip the intro thread because they're all the same, to the effect of "Hi I am new to the board and look forward to participating in conversations and meeting new people and enjoying this great hobbiy with other people" and get right to the point.

I've had some recent bad experiences with several dive Ops- I won't name them because as an intro thread my motivations would certainly be questioned if I start bashing some dive Ops right off the bat.

This is a general question to the community.

What do you think of Dive Ops who have the policy that if you do not cancel within a 24 hour window of the scheduled dive, you will be charged full price for the dive, however that same dive Op reserves the right to cancel on the diver right up until the evening before a morning dive- simply because there aren't a minimum number of divers?

How many of you have had this experience, especially during an expensive vacation where your diving is suddenly canceled for no reason other than "sorry we don't make any money (or we lose money) if we go out with less than 4 divers" and you either have to scramble last minute to find a Dive Op who is even open in the evenings or start calling at the crack of dawn hoping to find a place on a boat?

If I was a dive Op, I'd either a) always run the boat even if I was going to lose money- just like the airlines do. Can you imagine United Airlines calling you the night before your flight and saying "sorry not enough passengers, you gotta make other plans" or b) try my best to get them on someone else's boat and if not available, run them out to the dive site anyway or c) at the very least not hold divers to a 24 hour cancelation window AND tell them you might cancel if there aren't enough divers.

Here's how I handle it- when I call a Dive Op initially I ask them about their cancellation window policy AND if they will cancel on me if not enough divers.

If they are "one of those" Dive Ops I call other places until I find one that will run with only 1 or 2 divers.

If that is not possible I book dives with several dive Ops, and cancel on all of them at the last possible moment except for the one that is booked up (as per their website schedule or I call last minute).

The whole policy is bad for the Dive Ops and bad for the divers.

Just curious how you guys handle it. I've got an upcoming dive trip in the Florida Keys and all the Dive Ops seem to work that way and I've got scheduled dives with about 6 shops and I'm going to cancel on 5 of them the day before- and it's THEIR fault they'll be running with less divers because of their messed up policys.
 
Well, first of all, I'm sorry that this has happened to you, but as you say, when the trip isn't economical to run, no one wants to lose money. It isn't just about you, but it's about staying in business during hard economic times (or times of year) and continuing to support the entire dive community, not just one guy or family. We love our customers, but we can't keep putting money into the business forever. But I agree that POing the customers is bad for business too.

Here's a thought. Make arrangements to dive with xyz dive shop. The day before, at 24 hours, call them and ask for a guaranteed boat. If they won't guarantee the boat, cancel your reservation. That way, you're playing their game to your advantage. You have time to cancel, they understand that you are pissed off, but you're presenting it in a calm rational way (Well, if you can't guarantee me a boat, here's one less for you to go) and calm rationality gets you farther than just "punishing" them.

In Key West, the dive shops work together to make sure you can get on a boat, weather permitting. This who conversation is about not economical to run, not cancelled for weather. Anyway, most shops in Key West will go with 2 people. Sometimes if there are only 2, they will call the other shops and just put the peeps on the other shop's boat. Why? Because it's better for one shop to make a bundle than it is for everyone to lose.

Best of luck to you, and enjoy your time here in the keys.
 
Well, first of all, I'm sorry that this has happened to you, but as you say, when the trip isn't economical to run, no one wants to lose money.
If the dive trip was canceled at the last minute because some people canceled, and if the dive operation charged those people for the trip, how is the operation losing money?

If there is a possibility that the trip will be canceled because not enough people signed up for it in the first place, then why weren't those people notified of the potential cancellation in time to make alternative plans?
 
If the dive trip was canceled at the last minute because some people canceled, and if the dive operation charged those people for the trip, how is the operation losing money?

Seeing if I understand. Horribly optimistic numbers for simplicity sake:

Scenario one:
4 divers: 400$
1 boat charter: -200$
Profit: 200$

Scenario two:
4 divers: 400$
Three divers cancel last minute = Cancel charter
Refund diver #4: -100$
Profit: 300$

Running the charter loses the operator 100$.

It sucks to have a trip canceled on us last minute, but unless guaranteed (and priced accordingly) I don't expect anyone to try to stay in business while taking financial losses to avoid inconveniencing me. If it's bait and switch I'd be upset, but it appears their policy is clear.

Vote with your dollars. If the product doesn't suit your needs, and a kind conversation doesn't come up with a solution.... I'm sure both you and the dive charter are happier if you go separate ways.

Regards,
Cameron
 
Scenario number 3

1 diver signed up
24 hours out, crew standing around dive shop (I hope another diver (or 3) shows up so we can run)
At departure with one diver standing on the dock, too late to find another boat "Oh, the boat's cancelled, didn't (insert name here) call you?"
Refund $100, get name on ScubaBoard
Flurry of Scubaboard postings, name calling, bad feelings, defending, accusing.

Not all dive shop owners are business people.....
 
If the dive trip was canceled at the last minute because some people canceled, and if the dive operation charged those people for the trip, how is the operation losing money?

If there is a possibility that the trip will be canceled because not enough people signed up for it in the first place, then why weren't those people notified of the potential cancellation in time to make alternative plans?
The OP didn't say it was below minimum because people cancelled, he said it was below minimum. His complaint, which is valid, is why aren't the divers on the same playing field as the shop. If the trip is below minimum, the shop needs to cancel 24 hours early, just like the diver does. Otherwise, the trip needs to run regardless of who eats the trip.

For me, it was 30 days out. It was our policy that if we didn't make minimums 30 days out, we cancelled. That way folks didn't have to eat their airfare.

When the trip runs below break even, people lose money. I've run a Cay Sal trip with 2. When I was engineer on Caribbean Explorer, we ran a week long with one. Sometimes you just have to eat the trip.
 
Scenario one:
4 divers: 400$
1 boat charter: -200$
Profit: 200$

Scenario two:
4 divers: 400$
Three divers cancel last minute = Cancel charter
Refund diver #4: -100$
Profit: 300$

Running the charter loses the operator 100$.

If the shop runs the charter with 4 paying customers and a $200 overhead cost, then the shop makes $200. PERIOD. It makes $200 if there is one customer on board or 4 customers on board. It does not lose one dime.

If the shop cancels, it makes a bigger profit. Making a bigger profit does not mean that it suffered a loss when it made less profit. So on a canceled trip, the shop makes out big time. The losers are the diver who lost a day of diving and the boat crew that does not get paid.
 
The other perspective on this is long run vs. short run. A shop can make a longer run commitment to building a business and be known for running trips as scheduled. If it runs an occassional trip where it loses money it can still build good will and a positive reputation in the dive community. Unfortunately, its too easy in Florida to run a six pack on a financial shoe string and have no commitment to operating a real business.
 
My last post (#7) made me realize that if a boat is charging people for canceling trips, then it should ethically run that trip if they drop below the minimum because of that. Not running the trip is like the scam at the heart of The Producers--they make their best profit if the trip is canceled, because they don't have to pay the overhead. IF they run the trip, they make exactly as much money as they expected, and everyone is happy. If they don't run the trip, they pocket more money than they expected, and everyone else is screwed.
 
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I agree with @boulderjohn.
If an operator says it’s a go all the way up to a few hours before and claims not enough people signed up,
(or cancelled) then what happened to the money if they have a >24 hr. non refundable cancellation policy? And why weren’t the remaining customers notified asap?
The whole thing stinks to high hell of a scam.

It’s happened to me. I was already 6 hours into my drive from NorCal to Socal to get on a boat in a few hours, when a lady calls me and says that the captain decided not to go out because he spent one extra day at DEMA and was too hung over to deal with it.
So I was screwed. Never considered that boat ever again.
 
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