Dive Rite "Streamlines Openwater Configuration"

[gfaith]

My Buddy (wife) and I took a little different route. We let our LDS talked us into the Sherwood/Gemini (like Air2) as our backup. Neither of us liked them; they just did not breathe well for me and she felt turn constricted. So I was reading and researching.. got a great deal on some Hog D1 seconds and set them up with 22" hoses and homemade bungees. The bungeed alternate seconds are great for us, and we practice air sharing nearly every dive. It seems to me my alternate second breathes as good or better than my primary. I am considering getting a 24" hose as my shoulders and neck are pretty large.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Why not use a longer safe second hose and run that under the arm as well? I've never used a reg with a 90 degree elbow/swivel. I imagine it would be comfortable, but it is hard to see the reason for the safe second hose sticking out like that?

 

[tbone1004]

The angle adapters are required if they're coming up from under your shoulder, reg hoses don't like to bend in tight radii, so it is to ease strain on the mouth on the primary.

On the secondary, running it under the arm creates problems with the suicide strap because the reg will want to rotate 180* and fall out because of gravity, by keeping it routed the way it is, it has a harder time pulling down, it also keeps the hoses from getting entangled as easily.

I started diving this way as a way to avoid the 7' hose in non overhead environments while diving doubles. The 44" hose with adapter is plenty long enough for comfortable buddy ascents *the adapter adds an easy 5" to the length of the hose, meaning you can comfortably be 5" farther away from the second stage than you could be without one*, so it is only marginally shorter than the GUE minimum of 5' long hose. With that being said, with the original use in doubles, the secondary hose rests against the back of your neck for most of it's way across the back, so in a singles setup the shorter the better to keep it from bowing out. If it was run underneath it could also create a potential for entanglement during long hose deployment which is why GUE keeps damn near everything on their left side.

The pictures are also really terrible with tanks being really low on the wing, so the routing looks a bit off. I'm surprised their pictures don't have the primary running from the 5th port which would streamline that setup even more, but oh well. Hope that all made sense.... If not, I can rig up a set tomorrow and take a few pictures

 

[g1138]

show me those videos with gloves on. It works fine bare handed, but with gloves on it isn't so easy.

We donate primary because it is a known breathing regulator and in an emergency situation that is important. The hose routing is also a lot better with the super short hoses on the secondaries to the bungee. You can also get to your secondary without using your hands if you have to for whatever reason. Also no fumbling around trying to find the octo which has been stuck somewhere and may or may not be floating around behind you caught on something.

You would have to take my word and that of the 100+ students at the UC Santa Cruz Program. We've never had issue.
1mm gloves or 5mm gloves. Didn't matter.
Never even came up once.

 

[John_B]

Except for the 90-degree adapter on the primary, I've never seen one & never felt any need for one.

The 90° elbow works really well with the primary on a 40" hose under the right arm. I used that configuration for my open water rig for quite a long time, until I eventually replaced it with the 5 foot hose (which I prefer for air sharing drills). Frankly, at that level, it's not a big deal as they are probably better off ascending immediately, facing each other, since that's what they would've been taught in their OW class.

Oh, and add my voice to the chorus of people who really don't like to see the necklaced backup with a yellow cover. Assuming that they are still teaching OW students to go for a yellow octo/safe second and that whole "golden triangle" thing, a yellow necklaced backup is a colossally bad idea.

Also, can we teach the young lady to swim with her fins, not her hands, before we worry about "tech flavored" anything?

 

[eelnoraa]

You're joking right? I wanna know what lube you're using.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e86DP2hA1c&t=14s

ok not to open a can of worms here but why do we not donate the octo anymore?

This youtube video should demonstrate how ridiculous it is to donate the octo (with conventional hose setup). The octo hose length, usually at 40", is too short for the divers to swim properly into any direction beside up vertically. I can't imagine swimming any distance side way like that. Primary donate with 5' or 7' is a much much safer way to do air share.

 

[tbone1004]

fair enough, and I understand it is industry standard, but I've seen them get turned around, and doing it the other way is a much more accurate motion for the wrist to make because it goes from flexing of the wrist to rotation of the forearm which in a true OOA experience can be a but fumbly. Just saying to try it, it's much more controlled, if you don't like it to each their own, but it's a valid alternate that in my experience is much more sound.

This is what's taught to the 100+students/year at NC State where proper cave techniques are taught starting at day 1, and is also what was stressed during my cave training with other instructors.

 

[BUDMANOK]

The octo hose length, usually at 40", is too short for the divers to swim properly into any direction beside up vertically. I can't imagine swimming any distance side way like that. Primary donate with 5' or 7' is a much much safer way to do air share.

why not just lengthen the octo hose length? and why do I want to give away the only reg that I know is working? although I do make it a habit to breathe off my octo at some point during the dive so I know it's working.

I can understand it if you are carrying multiple gases but for rec divers it's just one gas.

Also unless you are in an environment where you just can't ascend immediately why would you want to swim side by side for any distance? I always thought getting to the surface as soon as safely possible was the best course of action.

I'm not arguing but before I make a change in my gear I like to understand all the reason's why.

also to those who think that unless you bungie the octo that you have no idea where it is mine goes in the same place every dive and no it's not streaming behind me or caught in something.

 

[tbone1004]

If it's around your neck you never have to look for it, you can feel if it goes somewhere.

So rationale being if you give your buddy the known working reg, he is the one that may need that breath asap. It is your decision to give it up prior to getting your first breath on your octo. You don't have to, but you can. You also want your buddy, who is in a not so warm fuzzy state of mind to have the reg that you know is your best breathing reg so he doesn't have to fight what is usually a very detuned octo for said breaths. In tec diving the only octos are on back gas, never on deco or stage bottles, so the same donation situation applies. The system is also more streamlined keeping the hoses tucked in. Your octo hose, while you think you know where it is all the time, can get caught on things and pulled away. That can't happen with a short secondary, and the primary routed under your shoulder, whether that is wrapped like you do with 5 or 7 footers, or just down and up with the 40 or 44" hoses. There is a very long list of reasons why, but the best explanation is in the Doing it Right, fundamentals of DIR diving that Jablonski wrote.

 

[Colliam7]

This configuration has been in use for some time in several university-based open water programs in the US. One of the many appealing features is that it can be implemented using 'standard' regulator hose configurations, and does not really require anything other than addition of a bungee necklace. The 90 degree adapter (or 360 degree swivel) is a 'nice to have' but not necessarily required. All that is done is a bungee necklace is put on the second stage on the shorter (frequently 28 - 30") second stage hose (previously the 'primary' second stage) and the diver breathes from the second stage on the longer (frequently 40") hose (previously the 'alternate'). It really doesn't require any change in hose lengths. The advantages of active donation of a second stage, primary second stage donation, secure, easily accessible, placement of the alternate, etc. are all achieved. Yes, swimming side-by-side with a 40" hose is not ideal. but then it never was, so that isn't a change. Yes, there may be some difference of opinion on the use of colors - the hose, the second stage housing, the second stage purge cover, etc. But, that is also relatively minor. If I have a colored hose in my existing setup, it will become the primary hose. If I have a second stage with a colored housing, or a colored purge cover, it will become my primary second stage. And, if I find that breathing from that (previously alternate) second stage is difficult, I will be reminded of what a panicked OOA diver would have experienced, and I will either properly tune it, or (better yet) replace it with a second stage either identical to, or equivalent in performance to, my previously primary second stage.

I now have OW students try this configuration during OW class, to see how convenient it really is. Generally, they do not find (nor do I) that breathing from a second stage on a 40" hose running under the arm presents an awkward positioning of the mouthpiece.

why do I want to give away the only reg that I know is working? although I do make it a habit to breathe off my octo at some point during the dive so I know it's working. . . . ok not to open a can of worms here but why do we not donate the octo anymore? . . ., I'm not arguing but before I make a change in my gear I like to understand all the reason's why.

Very good questions. In general, the OOA diver is the one most likely to be on the edge of / in panic, and most immediately in need of air. Donating a second stage that needs manipulation (or, worse, is not working) is more likely to put that diver into full-blown panic mode including an uncontrolled ascent, etc. It is best to donate a second stage that is known to be working at the time of donation, that has the venturi lever in the 'Open' / 'Dive' position, and has the user-adjustable breathing knob (if one is in use) dialed in to provide a comfortable flow of air. The donating diver is in a much better position to remain calm, cool and collected, actively donate a second stage to the OOA diver, find their alternate (conveniently positioned immediately below their chin, and potentially accessible without even using a hand to put it in their mouth), and make whatever adjustments are necessary to their alternate second stage. Or, if absolutely necessary, momentarily retrieve the alternate that they have just donated, and initiate buddy breathing (not optimal, and very unlikely to be needed if, as you also point out, the donating diver periodically checks the function of their alternate second stage).