Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[Mattleycrue76]

Oh the irony.

Idocsteve, has it ever even occurred to you that those guys who are doing the same dive times/profiles in doubles and drysuits as you are in your AL80 and a wetsuit might know something about gas management that you don't? Makes me wonder how you know that they're compensating for a lack of diving skills when you - per your own admission - don't know how to plan a dive.

 

[idocsteve]

Oh the irony.

Idocsteve, has it ever even occurred to you that those guys who are doing the same dive times/profiles in doubles and drysuits as you are in your AL80 and a wetsuit might know something about gas management that you don't? Makes me wonder how you know that they're compensating for a lack of diving skills when you - per your own admission - don't know how to plan a dive.

Did I say I don't know how to plan a dive?

Damn my memory MUST be going!

All I recall saying is that I do plan my dives, I use proper gas management techniques, and I have in the past calculated that my 19cf pony is adequate for my needs as a bailout redundant air source.

I also stated that I end my dives with sufficient gas, and when I dive off the same boat as the drysuit/doubles guys, my dives are of about the same duration and we report about the same levels of "chill".

Now please, point me to where I said anything even remotely close to "I don't know how to plan my dives".

Gotta love it when clueless forum posters make this crap up off the top of their heads and spew it like the Gospel they heard being preached at Church that very morning.

 

[Mattleycrue76]

Did I say I don't know how to plan a dive?

Ok I'll bite. How pray tell do you plan a dive if you can't figure out how much gas you're going to need for yourself, let alone a (heaven forbid) buddy?

I wouldn't call calculations that I did years ago and can't remember how to do "proper gas management"

 

[idocsteve]

Ok I'll bite. How pray tell do you plan a dive if you can't figure out how much gas you're going to need for yourself, let alone a (heaven forbid) buddy?

I wouldn't call calculations that I did years ago and can't remember how to do "proper gas management"

I figured out how much gas I would need in a bailout situation, several years ago, and with that knowledge in mind I got myself a 19cf bailout bottle and I never looked back. Since that time my diving conditions as well as my own physiology has not changed all that much, as I said, if anything I am in better shape now due to regular exercise. I could possibly use a smaller bailout bottle but I wouldn't downgrade at this point.

That much said, I plan my dives so I am able to finish them with what I feel is a comfortable reserve, I do not run out of gas and I have never had an OOA incident at depth in my entire diving history.

It works for me, and if you feel it necessary to be able to calculate your SAC rates and required gas reserves on every dive, then be my guest.

 

[Sas]

All I recall saying is that I do plan my dives, I use proper gas management techniques, and I have in the past calculated that my 19cf pony is adequate for my needs as a bailout redundant air source.

Why cannot you calculate it again though? It's really really very easy.

I also stated that I end my dives with sufficient gas, and when I dive off the same boat as the drysuit/doubles guys, my dives are of about the same duration and we report about the same levels of "chill".

I don't know how you can state that you end your dives with sufficient gas if you do not know your SAC rate under various conditions nor how you arrived at the gas calculations to determine if 19cf of gas is enough for you in an emergency.

Now please, point me to where I said anything even remotely close to "I don't know how to plan my dives"

You have posted that you do not know your SAC rate nor do you know how you arrived at 19cf of bailout gas. In effect you are saying "I don't know how to plan my dives".

 

[idocsteve]

Why cannot you calculate it again though? It's really really very easy.

Because I don't want to. Sas, you're just going to have to take "no" for an answer. I can tell you don't do that very well, but it's time to try. However, if you'd like to take me out to dinner some time, I'd be happy to bring a pencil and paper and work out the numbers for you right there. But you're buying.

I don't know how you can state that you end your dives with sufficient gas if you do not know your SAC rate under various conditions nor how you arrived at the gas calculations to determine if 19cf of gas is enough for you in an emergency.

I state that I end my dives with sufficient gas, well...because I do. There's usually about 500 psi left in my cylinder at the end of each dive, and as I said...that works for me.

You have posted that you do not know your SAC rate nor do you know how you arrived at 19cf of bailout gas. In effect you are saying "I don't know how to plan my dives".

No, what I'm saying is that I don't recall how I arrived at my bailout gas but when I did it was based on my SAC at the time, which is about what it is now, and I do in fact plan my dives, thank you very much.

 

[boulderjohn]

Idocsteve,

I swore I would stay out of this...

Let me just address as an example the issue of the chill reported by the dry suit divers.

When a dry suit diver says he was cold on a dive (which does happen), it means they did not use the appropriate underwear for the dive. Let's say I were diving in 60 degree water in my dry suit. If I wore my lightest weight underwear, I would be very cold. If I wore my heaviest underwear, I would be uncomfortably warm--sweating profusely, in fact. You cannot tell a thing about dry suits in general by a diver saying he or she was cold after a dive other than the fact that the diver made a bad choice of underwear.

You evidently don't know this.

As for bottom times, there are many reasons for people having particular bottom times. Some people just breathe down their tanks until a certain point, as you do. Others make other plans for other reasons. They may not have breathed down their tanks nearly at all for a number of various reasons.

You evidently don't know this.

You and I got into it on another thread, which is why I did not want to get into this, and I therefore enter this one with trepidation.

Please, please, please consider this:

You might be well served by sitting back and listening to what some other people are saying and considering that it might be possible that some of these people might know something you don't know. It might be possible that if you listen to them, you might learn something valuable, something that may, in fact, save your life.

 

[Sas]

Because I don't want to. Sas, you're just going to have to take "no" for an answer. I can tell you don't do that very well, but it's time to try. However, if you'd like to take me out to dinner some time, I'd be happy to bring a pencil and paper and work out the numbers for you right there. But you're buying.

If you don't want to provide backup for the stuff you are saying, cool, but then you can't really say anything back if someone criticises your lack of evidence nor can you comment on how other divers are doing things, particularly if they do discuss how they arrived at such a figure.

I state that I end my dives with sufficient gas, well...because I do. There's usually about 500 psi left in my cylinder at the end of each dive, and as I said...that works for me.

Well you are alive and posting so I imagine this is true. I am guessing you've never really had to deal with a proper emergency underwater with the current "plan" that you have. You also haven't done very many dives in order to really test a lot of what you are saying. For nearly all of my dives I would have survived them even if I had gone in the water with no planning whatsoever. Diving is pretty safe. But if something does go wrong (which has happened to me on a few occasions and I've only done just over 300 dives) then I would have been in a lot of trouble had I not planned properly. You haven't planned adequate bailout in my opinion unless you can post and justify your plan with figures, and pursade me otherwise.

No, what I'm saying is that I don't recall how I arrived at my bailout gas but when I did it was based on my SAC at the time, which is about what it is now, and I do in fact plan my dives, thank you very much.

How do you know if your SAC is the same given you don't know what it is? What was it in the past (the exact figure if you don't mind)? Also in my opinion there is no "one" SAC rate per person - it can vary based on certain conditions. What conditions have you tested your SAC with (even if you cannot remember the figures you should remember this)? How can you completely forget how to do a bailout plan also?

Do you do any buddy diving at all? If so do you plan for a reserve for them? Do you discuss with them what they will need in the event of an emergency and change your plan accordingly?

 

[idocsteve]

How do you know if your SAC is the same given you don't know what it is? What was it in the past (the exact figure if you don't mind)? Also in my opinion there is no "one" SAC rate per person - it can vary based on certain conditions. What conditions have you tested your SAC with (even if you cannot remember the figures you should remember this)? How can you completely forget how to do a bailout plan also?

Do you do any buddy diving at all? If so do you plan for a reserve for them? Do you discuss with them what they will need in the event of an emergency and change your plan accordingly?

I'm only going to address the part of your post that actually says something new. The rest of it is just the same back and forth about me producing calculations and me saying I don't have them or remember them and blah blah blah.

I don't "know" my SAC is the same but there is no reason to believe it's any different than it was 3 years ago. I tested my SAC under typical diving conditions and I understand that if I am anxious due to an emergency it may be somewhat higher.

I rarely do any buddy diving, if I do it's because I've been involuntarily hooked up with an instabuddy and I do not plan a reserve for them nor do I change my plan accordingly.

I have not forgotten how to do a bailout plan, as I have said numerous times on this thread I carry a redundant air source which I anticipate will get me safely to the surface should I experience an OOA emergency, and I plan my dives so that I end them with a sufficient reserve.

 

[idocsteve]

When a dry suit diver says he was cold on a dive (which does happen), it means they did not use the appropriate underwear for the dive

Good to know. Another way of looking at it is that a dry suit diver with the wrong underwear is no better off than I am in my SemiDry suit which is warm enough for my purposes.

As for bottom times, there are many reasons for people having particular bottom times. Some people just breathe down their tanks until a certain point, as you do. Others make other plans for other reasons. They may not have breathed down their tanks nearly at all for a number of various reasons.

True there can be all sorts of reasons why my bottom times are roughly the same as the dry/doubles guys. I guess another way of looking at is that the roughly 15 or so other divers on the Eagles Nest who have similar dive times to me could have actually dived longer but they chose not to, and if I had a similar gear configuration I could enjoy longer dives than I presently do with my single Al80 and Semidry suit. That's good to know, thanks for your input.