divemaster

[BrianS]

I think it's good he has a goal and is trying to pursue it. Better than not diving and quitting the sport. We are told by everyone when we first learn to dive that we should be working on other certificates. I am not sure why this is a problem if that's what he is going for. No one said he would get his cert at 15 dives, they said he was planning on doing Rescue then DM, what's the problem with that?

 

[BrianS]

Where does it say he was 15? They said "Youngster with 15 dives". Hell, anyone under 25 is a "Youngster" to me.

The other factor is age. The 15 year old can't be a DM until reaching at least 18.

 

[toodive4]

You are RIGHT - Not every DM works on a dive boat... which makes you wrong...

WRONG - Because before anyone should earn the title of DM (or Instructor,) they should have to at least have some experiences to share and a competence about what they are doing.. This knowledge, experience and competence is not taught in a classroom... it is gained in open water. If I were taking an "Open Water" Class... I'd at least want the person teaching me - and helping me with things to have done them in Open Water. How can I be sure they know what they're talking about if they've never experienced it before? It's one thing to talk about surge, it's another thing to relate a real world experience and give factual advice about how to deal with it... Maybe I expect too much... but I want my doctors to have performed many a competent surgery before they do mine... and I want my dive leaders to have jumped in the water many a time before they lead me into the abyss...

K

I agree with you Julie. Not every DM works on a boat. Lots of DMs end up as assistants in classes. For many people getting additional certifications is just a way to improve their own skills. I got my rescue diver shortly after my OW and AOW. I don't have any delusions that my certifications replace experience. I just wanted to learn as much as I could. I've met very few divers who think someone's cert level trumps experience.

 

[Hank49]

Another thing about the PADI divemaster course is that the dives done while working on the certification count toward the 60 required dives.

Keep in mind that the PADI program is a self perpetuating program. If there is no pool of divemasters from which to pull, then the number of instructors will eventually start declining. If the number of instructors starts declining then the number of certifications give out will start declining, therefore revenues will start declining.

Make it too difficult to become a divemaster then you effectively are reducing your future revenues. Make it easier to become a divemaster/instructor then you have the potential to generate more certifications thus increasing revenues.

the K

Make the dive industry like the medical doctor deal. Only so many are accepted per year. Then those that are instructors would actually make a decent living. Most quit the industry within a year after becoming an instructor because you just can't make any money at it.

 

[Hank49]

The other is that based on your post I see no reason to get grumpy about it. A kid wants to advance as a diver ("a youngster with 15 logged dives who wants to do his recue course then divemaster course") . Where's the problem with this? Hell, *I* want to take rescue for sure, and may one day want to take DM, though I have no particular itch about that right now. So what?

Good point Wayward. But, the next thing you know, the little tike will want to start spearing fish....solo..

 

[xiSkiGuy]

You are RIGHT - Not every DM works on a dive boat... which makes you wrong...

WRONG - Because before anyone should earn the title of DM (or Instructor,) they should have to at least have some experiences to share and a competence about what they are doing.. This knowledge, experience and competence is not taught in a classroom... it is gained in open water. If I were taking an "Open Water" Class... I'd at least want the person teaching me - and helping me with things to have done them in Open Water. How can I be sure they know what they're talking about if they've never experienced it before? It's one thing to talk about surge, it's another thing to relate a real world experience and give factual advice about how to deal with it... Maybe I expect too much... but I want my doctors to have performed many a competent surgery before they do mine... and I want my dive leaders to have jumped in the water many a time before they lead me into the abyss...

K

I'm not suggesting that DMs do not need experience. But the fact is there isn't a good way to quantify "experience". Even if you triple the requisite number of dives to be a DM, we all know that there will be some people who go to their local water-filled-hole-in-the-ground and do as many “20ft for 20min” dives as they can in order to log the necessary number. That is not experience.
On the other hand, just having a DM c-card doesn’t send you to work as a DM. K, as an instructor don’t you have discretion about who DMs for you?
You say you want

my dive leaders to have jumped in the water many a time before they lead me into the abyss...

Do you assume that because they have a particular cert level that they in turn have the proper experience? I imagine you ask them.
I agree that there is no substitute for experience, but a c-card doesn’t guarantee experience (and never will). It’s up to the individual diver to discern that through proper questioning of buddies and leaders.

 

[Sideband]

Because ALL the agencies are in it strickly for money. Back when I started diving. We had to do a thousand push ups in full gear, :sprite10: run a mile in 5 minutes with weight belt and fins on, do a 500 yard underwater swim, on one breath, in a shark tank , and then swim 2 miles. Up hill both ways. Then we were allowed to approach the instructor :director: and ask him to bestow his favor on us :god: and consider allowing us to sign up for class. Then things got tough. :wow_2:

Oh we used to dreeeeam about doing 500 yard underwater swims on one breath in a shark tank and then swim 2 miles up hill both ways.

We'd have claw out way through the polar cap at a hundred metres of seawater uising only our bare hands and wearing nothing but roller skates, whilst breathing pure mustard gas from a recycled coke bottle - and that was if the instructor liked what she saw.

Luxury. Before every class our instructor would cut off all of our limbs with a rusty dive knife, make us dig our own quarry using nothing but our tongues and then fill it to 60 feet with our own spit. The four of us then had to share one recycled coke bottle of mustard gas while using the dead bodies of the previous class as weights, if we were LUCKY!

Joe

 

[Scottri]

I've always felt that 100 was the minimum number of dives that should be required to enter the DM program. 20 is weak and 60 to finish is not enough. Those 100 should be in different locations, environments and conditions. I also feel that someone should be required to be a DM for a year or longer before AI or Instructor. I have learned more as a DM in the last 3 1/2 years than I could have dreamed. I am doing my AI this fall and then IDC/IE later. I'm in no hurry and it drives me nuts that people just want to get the card and move on. There is soooo much to know and you just can't know quickly.

 

[Diversauras]

I'm not suggesting that DMs do not need experience. But the fact is there isn't a good way to quantify "experience". Even if you triple the requisite number of dives to be a DM, we all know that there will be some people who go to their local water-filled-hole-in-the-ground and do as many “20ft for 20min” dives as they can in order to log the necessary number. That is not experience.
On the other hand, just having a DM c-card doesn’t send you to work as a DM. K, as an instructor don’t you have discretion about who DMs for you?
You say you want Do you assume that because they have a particular cert level that they in turn have the proper experience? I imagine you ask them.
I agree that there is no substitute for experience, but a c-card doesn’t guarantee experience (and never will). It’s up to the individual diver to discern that through proper questioning of buddies and leaders.

I think there are many ways to quantify experience that are better than number of dives, and if someone has a DM cert he should be able to do EVERYTHING that a DM anywhere might do, or they should break the DM rating into pieces to say this person is a pool and beach DM and this one a boat DM and this one a deep DM and so on.

 

[VaDiver]

The SSI requirement for their version of DM is Dive Control Specialist, or Dive Con. In order to start the course you must first have received your Advanced rating (minimum 24 dives), then have logged at least 40 dives before you start the course, and 60 to finish, in addition to the required classroom and pool time.

When I received my DC cert last year, I had logged 75 dives and to be honest, I did not feel ready to assume the full responsibility of a DC. So, I started slowly, helping out in the pool by taking slower students off to the side and working with them to master certain skills so they wouldn't slow down the entire group. Then I started going to the quarry with an instructor to help keep the students rounded up and moving in the right direction, or whatever I was asked to do. Much of this involved helping the students set their gear up, making they were weighted properly, or just answering general questions, etc. The usual stuff.

At this point with 97 dives, I still do not feel as if I am fully qualified to assume full responsibility for the lives of student divers even though I have done a variety of different and challenging dives and feel very comfortable with my own performance in the water. My goal is to get to the point that I am competent in handling the wide variety of underwater emergencies that can pop up so easily with a group of student divers. The only way I know how to get to this point is to simply keep helping, watching, and diving.

I think the entire issue of this thread is that candidates for DM/DC certs have to honestly assess their own level of experience. We all grow in this sport at different rates and we have to stay within our limits until we move forward to the next level. Trouble is, many divers don't do this which I feel puts the students at risk since they look with awe at anyone with even the bare minimum of 5 dives under their weight belts. They have no way of knowing at first how competent a DM might be, but the smart ones figure it out real quickly.

Thanks for reading...