Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

Seanpaul, this is an interesting and contentious thread. Someone died that should not have. If this thread is too strong for you, then maybe consider many of the other good threads on this board? Failing that, you could put me on your ignore list. Sorry this thread upsets you:depressed:

Pilot fish, with all due respect DM is a cert level, his role was guide. I know you have not dived the Red Sea. In Sharm your dive guides are instructor level. DMs, if they are along have been relegated to the rear. I have yet to find a "DM" guide there. The point is the people on the guided dive don't sign all the paperwork for an "instructor level" dive/course. On a guided dive - unless they tell you otherwise - you can dive a different profile than the guide, BUT you stay with your buddy at all times. New divers would not know this unless they were told this. I don't know that any facts of what was said in the dive briefing will be borne out - nor do you. I do indeed think -if everything presented turns out to be true- that it was "irresponsible" to take such new divers on this dive (where do you get the "not dived in one year" tho for the 16 year old? - I missed that in the post). However being irresponsible is a long way from legally responsible. Morally a whole nother story.

Also if I may just make a comment to board etiquette, I find it difficult to read your posts when you are SHOUTING AT ME... Any chance you would be willing to tone it down, I personally would appreciate it. Thank you. :cool2:

 

[Cave Diver]

I wonder how many people here that are calling for the DM to be "responsible" for the group have found themselves on a dive where they either disregarded/ignored instructions from the DM or followed begrudgingly because "the dive was within their ability to execute alone."

I was recently on Grand Cayman and had the opportunity to interact with several of the dive ops there, but not specifically the one in question.

I found myself a bit frustrated at some of the "regulations" imposed by the CIWSA (Cayman Islands Water Sports Authority). I was told by one dive op that I would not be allowed to do a shore dive from their location. Although the dive site was at a depth of approximately 50', they told me that their insurance didn't cover "technical diving," as I wanted to use my CCR. I was given the choice of doing the dive on OC, or walking 100' down the shoreline and entering the water from a public spot.

I found similar restrictions from other shops when I inquired about dives that fell outside their "recreational paramaters."

As a whole, I'd have to say that I found most of the dive ops to be too restrictive for my liking, as I prefer to plan and execute my own dives without following a cookie cutter profile.

It's sad anytime we lose a fellow diver, especially when it seems as if it could have been preventable. One of the biggest ironies is that so many people rally for individual choice and freedom to do what we want, yet turn and point fingers when things go wrong.

Could the diver have been trained better? Probably.
Should they have had more experience before going deep? Probably.
Could the dive op have paid closer attention? Probably.
Could the rest of the group have paid closer attention, or spoken up before getting in the water? Probably.

There are a lot of things that *could* have been done differently, but I see a lot of speculation on what might have happened to cause this accident and not a lot of facts. Many of the facts that have been presented are questionable as they come from someone who was under obvious duress from the situation.

In my opinion, people in general are quick to push the envelope and dismiss the dangers and warnings of things they wish to pursue until things go bad. I'd be curious to know how many people actually read, answer truthfully and abide by all the conditions set forth in a dive release form and how many just gloss over it and sign on the dotted line.

fosterboxermom my condolences on your loss.

 

[bsee65]

There is also a discrepency between the original poster saying there were seven customers on this dive and GaryLee saying there were five. I suspect that the five stated by GaryLee probably discounts the two who remained at 60' during the dive.

With regard to the teen diver, fosterboxermom stated early on that he was under 18 and had not dived in a year. GaryLee referred to him initially as a "newly qualified diver", then began writing of a 16 year old diver with over 300 dives who hadn't dived in over a year, though I'm not sure if the latter was a description of the diver in question or just a hypothetical.

 

[vondo]

There is also a discrepency between the original poster saying there were seven customers on this dive and GaryLee saying there were five. I suspect that the five stated by GaryLee probably discounts the two who remained at 60' during the dive.

With regard to the teen diver, fosterboxermom stated early on that he was under 18 and had not dived in a year. GaryLee referred to him initially as a "newly qualified diver", then began writing of a 16 year old diver with over 300 dives who hadn't dived in over a year, though I'm not sure if the latter was a description of the diver in question or just a hypothetical.

Clearly hypothetical. He said "none of the above is a fact." I think his point is we don't know. I don't recall anyone, even the OP, saying the 16 yo was newly certified. And if she did, I don't know how reliable that would be.

There are a lot of "facts" here that you are all arguing over and I don't see how any of you know much more than that a newly certified male diver died. GaryLee is getting his "facts" 2nd hand from the operator and is probably not getting the truth either, just their version of it.

PilotFish is implying a lot more than has been posted here before (mention of a video) so I would like to know what his inside channel to information is. GaryLee has at least been forthcoming on the source of his information.

 

[ScubaSteve]

No matter what, there is always three version of THE TRUTH!!! Your version (in this case the OP), Their version (in this case Divers Down) and the truth which will likely contain a sprinkle from each of the others.

The truth is out there people, but rarely is it found in its purist form on ScubaBoard. Just an FYI.

There are a lot of "facts" here that you are all arguing over and I don't see how any of you know much more than that a newly certified male diver died. GaryLee is getting his "facts" 2nd hand from the operator and is probably not getting the truth either, just their version of it.

PilotFish is implying a lot more than has been posted here before (mention of a video) so I would like to know what his inside channel to information is. GaryLee has at least been forthcoming on the source of his information.

That is correct. Some people are discussing their version of the truth and others are just participating. Neither group, IMO is discussing the truth because there is nobody here that is truly impartial to the situation or parties AND has access to the truth (the real truth and not a variation of it).

Unfortunately that is the nature here. This thread had potential a while ago to have some possible positive outcome for "insight to prevent a recurrance" but I think even that hope is dwindling.

 

[Web Monkey]

As I said, we all call the guides on Boats DiveMasters. and they really don't need that certification as they are only Guides. You surely don't believe that everytime you get in the water off a boat it's the Guide/Divemasters job to be responsible for you in the water and to make sure you don't run out of air, that your equipment you bought with you is in service etc. if so, you should make that clear to your next guide who will more than likely look kindly on you and take you under their wing.

Personally, I need a DM like I need antlers, however when diving on Grand Cayman, all the dive ops seem to provide/require them. I don't know if this is GC law or just marketing, but they're there. And if they're there they need to act in the best interest of the divers they're supervising.

So when a PADI shop sends a "DiveMaster" out on a dive, I expect him to stand up to his end of the deal, which is providing the level of care and supervision taught in the DM class. This includes watching out for new divers and exercising professional judgement.

And on a similar note, (even though I personally know better) the general diving public expect a "PADI 5 Star" dive op to be a responsible entity and abide by PADIs standards. And because they beleive PADI's promotional material, they expect that diving with a PADI Instructor or DM means that someone will be watching out for them.

Divers are responsible for themselves and to a lesser extent their buddies. not to other buddy pairs or divers in the water.

This is true for recreational divers, not professionals acting in a professional capacity with responsibilities for a group.

The age is irrelivant in this instance. But is that fact? there are no depth police and there are no depth limits for divers.

PADI (the cert agency DD is affiliated with) most certainly sets limits. According to their rules, they're only enforced for training, but are recommendations for other dives. However new (and I'd bet most experienced) divers do not know this and expect that DMs and instructors will behave in a safe and predictable manner, just like they did during class.

If this is not the case, then DD and all the other dive ops need to have big signs and forms to sign that say "You're not in class, and we're off the hook. Try not to get killed."

The issues I see with diving beyond the depth you are certified to go to are; and not in any particular order: Should you have a diving related injury your insurance will not cover you if you have dived beyond your training at any point during your holiday (Yes I know this to be fact). There are physiological effects of diving beyond 24metres such as Nitrogen Narcosis, as you go deeper there is Oxygen toxicity, Nitrogen Toxicity, Equipment conciderations. personal fitness. I could go on but my fingers aren't used to all this typing....

The more expensive DAN plan covers you regardless of depth, but that's irrelevant since they can't bring back the dead. The rest is true and is a good start on a list of reasons why brand new OW divers shouldn't be taken to deep sites with no bottom.

I really hate to just dump on people or organizations, and actually liked Divers Down, but their standard practices simply do not accommodate new divers, and if even the basic facts (location of the dive and certification levels) are true, they really ******* the pooch on this one.

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

While we are discussing roles and duties, (as far as I'm concerned the DM DG thing is just a quibble and changes nothing) I am given to understand that the DM/DG was also the boat captain. Last time I checked a boat captain in a commercial operation is responsible for the life and limb of his passengers, from embarkation to debarkation even if the boat stops for a swim call or a dive.

 

[Riger]

This thread had potential a while ago to have some possible positive outcome for "insight to prevent a recurrance" but I think even that hope is dwindling.

Sadly, I have to agree.

 

[John_B]

Sorry to make you smile. I assure you, that was not my intention. I have it as fact, cannot tell you how, or whom, at this point, that the GUIDE, as your guys are now calling him, was NOT the 16 yr olds dive buddy. This will be proven by other divers on the boat and a video.

Were you there? Do you know anyone who was, other than through this thread? Are you in possession of this video? How is it that you presume to know who the buddies were (and weren't) on this particular charter?

One thing I don't get about you, PF, is why you seem to have this underlying need to have a dog in this fight.

 

[pilot fish]

It would stand to reason, right? Didn't they violate the Cayman law, that requires two people on a dive boat, dm and capt? Did I read that in this thread correctly?

If a local regulations, marine park (ex: Cozumel) or some other authority require a DM on every dive, does that imply that the DM has certain level of responsibility for the divers on that excursion?

Just curious.