Diver Death in Cayman

[Web Monkey]

The Divemaster encourages responsible diving, provides logistical support, prepares for reasonable foreseeable emergencies, but does not plan the dives of individual divers."

It's nice that it's in the IM, but it would be better if it was posted on a big sign on every boat that runs DM-lead dives.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

I am not saying that the dive site wasn't a poor selection, however you have the right as a diver to refuse any dive for any reason. DON'T DO TRUST ME DIVES.

I know not to do "trust me dives" but at least three of my relatives (older, out of state and certified way before I was) beleive that a DM will "keep them safe." I suspect it's the term "Dive Master" that leads them to think this.

Terry

 

[pilot fish]

We hand over responsibilty to others many times A DAY in our daily lives: trains, boats, planes, park rangers, doctors, police and persons hired to lead a dive that should know and enforce rules. If the new divers asks to do something that is clearly against rules, like go to 100 ft on first dive, you expect the DM to AT THE VERY LEAST, WARN YOU AGAINST THAT. Now I've answered you. Let me then ASK YOU a question.

If this "DM" had not allowed that diver to go to 100 ft, gone to a proper dive sit, one with a hard bottom of 60 to 80 ft, kept both groups together, as he should have, do you think that diver would be alive today?

Other things not done:

1) Victim did NOT plan his own dive. The OP planned hers.
2) If the victim did plan his dive - he did NOT follow it ... unless swimming to 345' was part of his plan

Unfornately the victim did take the ultimate responsibility for his actions. However - if he had dove conservatively which his training did (or should have) trained him to do then as you say - he would have lived to dive another dive.

Please PF - answer me why you think it is ok to hand over responsibility for your well being to someone you have just met for the first time? This just doesn't make sense to me - I don't understand how you can justify this?

Was this diver that naive in understanding the risks of this type of dive? Did he have a belief that nothing bad could happen to him? Did his training lead him to believe that he would have a babysitter on his dives? I am asking - why didn't he say NO!!!

I am not saying that the dive site wasn't a poor selection, however you have the right as a diver to refuse any dive for any reason. DON'T DO TRUST ME DIVES.

 

[pilot fish]

I think the deceased diver was in need of, and should have gotten, some guidance, which is the DM's responsibilty.This poor diver got none of that.

I know not to do "trust me dives" but at least three of my relatives (older, out of state and certified way before I was) beleive that a DM will "keep them safe." I suspect it's the term "Dive Master" that leads them to think this.

Terry

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The problem is that this person was not acting as a DM but as a Dive Guide. Did he make serious errors in judgement? Absolutley. As did everyone on that boat. The best answer is not going to be gotten here. The answer to the problems that have been illustrated will be only answered at the agency level and at the resort management level. Or by instructors and divers who care enough to see that things are changed. PF why don't you write to PADI and Diver's Down and ask them why such things are permitted. Tell them you have now found out that many times it's Russian Roulette with new divers and the standards many of them are trained to as well as the ops that let them or take them on these dives. Ask why guides in Cozumel routinely break standards with no action taken by those who supposedly oversee and employ them. You will not get off the idea that a DM is supposed to be the protector of the untrained, the ignorant, the uninformed, the reckless, and in some cases the stupid. That is not their job. Unless they have been specifically contracted for it, a DM leading a group would foolish and stupid to properly "buddy up" with a one single diver. He has then effectively shirked his responsibility to the group. It is your responsibility to say I'm will not dive that site. It is not what I've been trained for. I would also have no problem telling a new or inexperienced diver they have no business on this site or that one. Or they should not even be on the boat. But it is not my responsibility to tie them up and prohibit them from doing the dive.

If I pay for a dive to the Duane and the op lets newbs on the boat I'll tell them they should not do that dive. But if they choose to I'll not alter my plan to watch them unless they pay me to do so. You have the ability to warn divers on these things if you see it happening. What will you do when the time comes? Will you say to the captain this not safe and refuse to do the dive? Or will you warn the new divers? Or will you say oh well the DM says we dive here and there's nothing I can do about it? Me if it was that big of an issue I'd tell the captain I'm sitting this one out and I'd start telling everyone else that they should do the same. If enough people object be cause they choose to take responsibility for themselves instead of being mindless sheep like we see so often on these dives the fatalities would drop. Until then sheep will continue to die and they have only themselves to blame. Ignorance is really no excuse. Peopel are lazy and do not want to do the research and work necessary to preserve their own lives. Not just in scuba but other sports as well. You can hire a guide to take you to the top of Everest. And you may die. You can go buy a crotch rocket that will do 180 plus. Is the dealer supposed to say no? It;s your responsibility to research every aspect and learn as much as possible. Those who will not do that sometimes need to learn the hard way. Sometimes others die so we can live by learning from their mistakes.

 

[pilot fish]

The problem is that this person was not acting as a DM but as a Dive Guide. Did he make serious errors in judgement? Absolutley. As did everyone on that boat. The best answer is not going to be gotten here. The answer to the problems that have been illustrated will be only answered at the agency level and at the resort management level. Or by instructors and divers who care enough to see that things are changed.

Even if he only acted as a Dive Guide [ please keep in mind he was prestned to the dive group as a Dive Master, by the shop and himself - you now have to ask yourself, why call him a DM if he is in fact only a DG? ] he did not perform to minimum standards, even in his ex post facto position, DG.

PF why don't you write to PADI and Diver's Down and ask them why such things are permitted. Tell them you have now found out that many times it's Russian Roulette with new divers and the standards many of them are trained to as well as the ops that let them or take them on these dives. Ask why guides in Cozumel routinely break standards with no action taken by those who supposedly oversee and employ them. You will not get off the idea that a DM is supposed to be the protector of the untrained, the ignorant, the uninformed, the reckless, and in some cases the stupid. That is not their job. Unless they have been specifically contracted for it, a DM leading a group would foolish and stupid to properly "buddy up" with a one single diver. He has then effectively shirked his responsibility to the group. It is your responsibility to say I'm will not dive that site. It is not what I've been trained for. I would also have no problem telling a new or inexperienced diver they have no business on this site or that one. Or they should not even be on the boat. But it is not my responsibility to tie them up and prohibit them from doing the dive.

Do you think PADI doesn't know this?

If I pay for a dive to the Duane and the op lets newbs on the boat I'll tell them they should not do that dive. But if they choose to I'll not alter my plan to watch them unless they pay me to do so. You have the ability to warn divers on these things if you see it happening. What will you do when the time comes? Will you say to the captain this not safe and refuse to do the dive? Or will you warn the new divers? Or will you say oh well the DM says we dive here and there's nothing I can do about it? Me if it was that big of an issue I'd tell the captain I'm sitting this one out and I'd start telling everyone else that they should do the same. If enough people object be cause they choose to take responsibility for themselves instead of being mindless sheep like we see so often on these dives the fatalities would drop. Until then sheep will continue to die and they have only themselves to blame. Ignorance is really no excuse. Peopel are lazy and do not want to do the research and work necessary to preserve their own lives. Not just in scuba but other sports as well. You can hire a guide to take you to the top of Everest. And you may die. You can go buy a crotch rocket that will do 180 plus. Is the dealer supposed to say no? It;s your responsibility to research every aspect and learn as much as possible. Those who will not do that sometimes need to learn the hard way. Sometimes others die so we can live by learning from their mistakes.

This Dive Guide, as you now refer to him, should have at the very minimum, kept the group together and told this diver that he is not cleared to do 100 ft. Would that have been hard for him to do? Do you think he should have done that? If he had done that, do you think this diver would have survived that dive?

 

[Thalassamania]

Would it not be pretty much the same if you went with a guide in ie. yellowstone national park .. and just because the guide is there, you just have to go check out that grizzley up close and persoanl ... do you expect the guide to beat the grizzley and save you?

There are no grizzlies in Yellowstone, there are black bears. Anyway, if I were in an area where a bear is a rare and unpredictable event I would expect the guide to state that and to provide me with some idea of what to do and not to do; however, if we were going to an area where a bear encounter was almost a sure thing, I'd expect the guide to be as thoroughly prepared, and to have me as thoroughly prepared, for such an occurrence as possible. If I walk up to the bear and tweak it's nose I'm on my own, but that's way outside of any simile to the incident under discussion, which likely involves things like buoyancy skills and narcosis.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Even if he only acted as a Dive Guide [ please keep in mind he was prestned to the dive group as a Dive Master, by the shop and himself - you now have to ask yourself, why call him a DM if he is in fact only a DG? ] he did not perform to minimum standards, even in his ex post facto position, DG.






Do you think PADI doesn't know this?



This Dive Guide, as you now refer to him, should have at the very minimum, kept the group together and told this diver that he is not cleared to do 100 ft. Would that have been hard for him to do? Do you think he should have done that? If he had done that, do you think this diver would have survived that dive?

And exactly how would you do that PF with adults capable of making up their own minds and having free will? What in your training says how to do this. Get off it already! If you want the DM/DG to keep you safe and control the dive and everyone on it, pay him to do that and be sure before you leave the dock that's what he/she will do. It cannot be done the way you'd like it. Oh we could tie everyone together and put remotes on their bcs and regs but even then stuff will still happen. The fact is the divers were free, over 21, and not morons. The instructor who did not effectively let them know what they were capable of and what their limits were is where this all started. If they had been compentently trained, if everyone were competently trained we would not be having this discussion and THEN YES, HE WOULD BE ALIVE!

 

[scubajb]

There are no grizzlies in Yellowstone, there are black bears...

Not that it matters much in this conversation but definitely wrong on this point... Rest of what you said makes sense though. Definitely a terrible situation and hopefully the dive community - both the operators and the paying customers will learn from the event. I know as a DM candidate, I have learned from most of the comments here... Feel badly for the deceased and his family. I pray for their comfort.

PS
By the way, Went out with Jason at Ambassador Diver's in GC last summer and he had a good operation when we were there. Someone always on the boat and depending on the dive, a DM in the water...

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

We hand over responsibilty to others many times A DAY in our daily lives: trains, boats, planes, park rangers, doctors, police and persons hired to lead a dive that should know and enforce rules. If the new divers asks to do something that is clearly against rules, like go to 100 ft on first dive, you expect the DM to AT THE VERY LEAST, WARN YOU AGAINST THAT. Now I've answered you. Let me then ASK YOU a question.

If this "DM" had not allowed that diver to go to 100 ft, gone to a proper dive sit, one with a hard bottom of 60 to 80 ft, kept both groups together, as he should have, do you think that diver would be alive today?

The diver is question CHOSE to dive to 100'. Other members in the group CHOSE not to go that deep. The diver in question had false expecations about the role of a DM in this setting and I am pissed off as to why this was the case. I want to know where that expectation came from and I think we all owe it this dive to attempt to prevent these false expectations from occuring again. Its impossible to answer your question - since if this diver "wanted" to go deep then even if the DM had kept the group at 60' ... there is a very real possibility that this could have happened no matter what the DM had done. Do I think the DM acted to best of his abilities and training - of course not. I have thrown DMC's out of the DM course for lack of judgement. However - I believe we should be looking for ways to prevent this type of tragedy from happening again - not splitting up the blame. Expecting DM's to babysit every diver that they lead on a dive is unrealistic so how do we prevent this type of attitude towards DM's to begin with?