Agreed. I was just trying to correct the mistaken belief that the lawsuit was silly and that the facts of what happened were unconscionable.Xanthro:
Diver in California Sues for Being Left
- Thread starter darylm74
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wolf eel
Contributor
Thanks for the info on that (McDonalds) I have allways wondered about that. The payment is just also as it was explained.
Charlie99
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Here a good summary of the McDonalds's coffee case. Quite different than one would assume upon first hearing about the case. The $2.7million punitive damages were reduced to $480k, 3 times the compensatory damages after the 20% reduction for her portion of fault for the accident.
Every dive boat I've worked/dived from in California has you sign two sheets of paper. One contains your C-card number and fishing license if needed, the other is a standard waiver stating that you understand the dangers of scuba and the potential dangers of the dive sites, including depth, currents, animals, etc. Unless it's an open boat, the shop chartering the trip sells the spots and it's up to them to advise a diver of the type of diving that will occur. On the particular trip Dan was on, they were scheduled to dive the oil rigs in open water with depths of 300-700 feet then make another dive at the Ace One wreck in 125 feet, also in open water. I don't understand why someone with limited experience and out of the water for six months would even consider such a trip, but I guess Dan felt qualified somehow.Groundhog246:
cdiver2
Contributor
I would have given her nothing, we all know coffee is hot and holding it between the knees is just asking for trouble only a door post would do that. Seems I'm an odd man out I will have to stop bringing water to the boil when I make coffee.
Judging by this case Dan the bober should get about $20 mil
Judging by this case Dan the bober should get about $20 mil
I didn't know the history until reading the link. Her trying to settle the case for $20,000 which would have included her surgical bills, etc. was very reasonable. Lawsuits like these are what protect the rest of us. Everyone knows coffee is hot, but who would expect to get third degree burns over 6% of your body with McDonald's being aware of the problem ahead of time. Without punitive damages, the Pinto's would keep exploding, we would not have airbags, etc. When high dollars are awarded it must be remembered that the average joe off the street sitting on the jury found a reason to award the punitive damages so that future bad conduct would be prevented.cdiver2:
Groundhog246
Contributor
I don't boil water to make coffee (I don't drink instant coffee, would rather do without) and coffee from my coffee maker is about 140F. I also drink it black, so no cold milk or cream involved. What she asked for was enough $$ to cover her medical expenses and lost wages. The JURY awarded her far more after McDonalds brought forth it's defense. After the case, they added "Coffee is Hot" warning to their cups. I've never had coffee from any other restaurant hot enough to scald.
Wonder if you'd feel the same if you dumped a coffee in you lap and had part of your genitals removed. Perhaps a 'forced' circumcision? :11:
Is the shop that organized the charter not part of the lawsuit (named defendant)? My local shops don't organize many charters. For those they do run, proof of training and experience for the dive is required. For the shop where I trained they know me and have seen my log book. Other shops have asked for my c-card and a couple of times asked to see my log book. It's an unfortunate part of diving, that beginnning divers, often do their OW followed immediately by their AOW and think they're ready to tackle any dive going. This is NOT the just the fault of the student, they don't know how much they don't know yet, it's also the fault of their instructor(s). So perhaps Dan's instructor(s) did not clearly make the point that he was only certified to dive in conditions similar to those where he did his training dives (we got THAT lecture more than once during the course and that baby steps were required to expand your range of skills). From the description of the dives on here, they sound like dives that should require a minimum of 50 to 60 dives logged (and at least 10 to 15 per year).
Wonder if you'd feel the same if you dumped a coffee in you lap and had part of your genitals removed. Perhaps a 'forced' circumcision? :11:
Is the shop that organized the charter not part of the lawsuit (named defendant)? My local shops don't organize many charters. For those they do run, proof of training and experience for the dive is required. For the shop where I trained they know me and have seen my log book. Other shops have asked for my c-card and a couple of times asked to see my log book. It's an unfortunate part of diving, that beginnning divers, often do their OW followed immediately by their AOW and think they're ready to tackle any dive going. This is NOT the just the fault of the student, they don't know how much they don't know yet, it's also the fault of their instructor(s). So perhaps Dan's instructor(s) did not clearly make the point that he was only certified to dive in conditions similar to those where he did his training dives (we got THAT lecture more than once during the course and that baby steps were required to expand your range of skills). From the description of the dives on here, they sound like dives that should require a minimum of 50 to 60 dives logged (and at least 10 to 15 per year).
wolf eel
Contributor
In other posts I think they had knowledge of how few dives he had and how long it was since the last time he was in the water.
That is a good point about the shop unless he had told them everything and passed that info on to the boat operator to make the call.
Groundhog246
Contributor
If the boat operator (Captain, DM) and/or the shop who organized the charter, did in fact know his diving history and deemed the dive suitable for his experience level, that would, in my mind, remove most of the diver's culpability. If I went to my LDS, who know my training level and diving history (not long since I was in the water with their instructors present) and they accept my money for a charter as being within my capability, which later turns out to be well beyond my ability, how much is really my fault. Yes, I should know my skill level. But if it's a site I've never dove before, thus no first hand knowledge, how do I judge? My first current dive was in the St. Lawrence River and was just about as much as I could swim against. I certainly could not have done the entire 135 foot length of the wreck non stop, finning against the current. Fortunately, I had about 80 dives under my belt and received a great pre-dive briefing on the dive, including areas of the wreck where you could shelter from the current for a break. I have a buddy who wants me to do a drift dive in the St. Clair River. My understanding of the dive, you drift with the current to a particular point, then head towards shore and ride the backwash back to your entry point. Current can run 3 to 5 knots, you CAN NOT swim against it, so don't try. Spare mask is recommended in case yours is swept off. I considered it and decided it was beyond my skill level/comfort zone (currently I'm at 140 dives logged and at least another 30 in pools not logged). I do know of shops who have taken OW divers with less than 30 dives and who have never done a current dive on this one. If I had been offered this trip, before my first dive in a current, I might have gone along, not knowing what I didn't know, and trusting in the professionals to judge what's safe.
In the case of Drifting Dan, it's plausible that the shop may have had the impression that he was more experienced than he was. I have over 1,000 dives and have never been asked to show my logbook. Dan had dived in Fiji, so he may have felt comfortable with the possible currents.
I took a friend to a local shipwreck once. He was in the Underwater Photo Society with me. I had seen his underwater slides from Australia, Fiji, Palau and Mexico. He was an excellent photographer. At the shipwreck, which sits in 100 feet with the top of the wreck at 55 feet he Hoovered his tank down to 400 psi in less than ten minutes. When we got back up to the boat he was shaking. After he calmed down he told me that he had never been that deep before. He then told me that he only had seven previous dives. He worked for a major airline and traveled each week, occasionally making one dive every few months. It never occured to me to ask first.
I took a friend to a local shipwreck once. He was in the Underwater Photo Society with me. I had seen his underwater slides from Australia, Fiji, Palau and Mexico. He was an excellent photographer. At the shipwreck, which sits in 100 feet with the top of the wreck at 55 feet he Hoovered his tank down to 400 psi in less than ten minutes. When we got back up to the boat he was shaking. After he calmed down he told me that he had never been that deep before. He then told me that he only had seven previous dives. He worked for a major airline and traveled each week, occasionally making one dive every few months. It never occured to me to ask first.
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