Diver Training: How much is enough?

[waterpirate]

Well this divulged after the data corruption re-started it???
How much training is enough was the original question. Yesterday I attended a tactical pistol class to obtain a permit. It was a wildly diverse group of people, from which end does the projectile come out of, to people who were there to just get checked off. After watching people at the newbie end of the spectrum get instructed and improve, and some who did not, we all got got our tickets punched. Pretty scarry I thought as some of them I felt should not be allowed to carry a sling shot unsupervised.

At the end the instructor told everyone that practice,practice,practice was the key to getting better and staying qualified. He gave all the newbs a list of dates for formal time when he could further help and guide them. 1/2 the newbs signed up immediately, the other 1/2 scoffed and went away. sound familiar? So the lesson I took away is that it is ALL up to the student, not the instructor or agency. All the newbs met the minimum requirement and were urged to continue training, yet some will not. Human nature is pretty scarry huh?
Eric

 

[RTee]

I hate to ask what the minimum requirements were considering the last phrase of your opening statement...not be allowed to carry a sling shot unsupervised.

Well this divulged after the data corruption re-started it???
How much training is enough was the original question. Yesterday I attended a tactical pistol class to obtain a permit. It was a wildly diverse group of people, from which end does the projectile come out of, to people who were there to just get checked off. After watching people at the newbie end of the spectrum get instructed and improve, and some who did not, we all got got our tickets punched. Pretty scarry I thought as some of them I felt should not be allowed to carry a sling shot unsupervised.

At the end the instructor told everyone that practice,practice,practice was the key to getting better and staying qualified. He gave all the newbs a list of dates for formal time when he could further help and guide them. 1/2 the newbs signed up immediately, the other 1/2 scoffed and went away. sound familiar? So the lesson I took away is that it is ALL up to the student, not the instructor or agency. All the newbs met the minimum requirement and were urged to continue training, yet some will not. Human nature is pretty scarry huh?
Eric

 

[DCBC]

Pretty scarry I thought as some of them I felt should not be allowed to carry a sling shot unsupervised.

I too have to question the logic of turning out incompetent gun owners. It doesn't appear to be in the best interests of the Clients or Society.

 

[waterpirate]

I too have to question the logic of turning out incompetent gun owners. It doesn't appear to be in the best interests of the Clients or Society.

No questions needed. You can not fix human nature. The standards were set, and met by all in attendance. Some will go on to be better, others will get hurt, some will die, some will stop all together. Still not sounding familiar? To REALLY focus on what I said, take out the word gun, and insert scuba. Take out the statement carry a sling shot and insert go snorkelling on vacation.

Cheers
Eric


It is allways up to the student. Not the agency, instructor, govt. ect.

 

[RTee]

preparing a diver who is being certified to effectively act as a competent Buddy.

base recreational diving on the Buddy system, shouldn't we train the Buddy to respond to a sub-surface problem?

to safely dive in local conditions, with a Buddy, unsupervised.

When I certify a diver, I want to know that they have the basic knowledge and skill-sets to dive safely and effectively with anyone (Iimagine a family member as the Buddy).

When you're diving as a Buddy team in poor conditions, the safety of your Buddy is a real issue as well.

They calculate their gas consumption on Dive 1 and project their consumption for Dive 2.

DCBC,

I attempted to capture what I consider the most general and salient points of your post as I feel they should represent, in my mind, the minimal standard for OW certification.

Safe and effective...I can easily relate to that as it also forms the underlying principle of DND instrument flying rating test. Buddy system goes way beyond the single aspect of safety (even though it is an important one). It should also imply a synergy of some sort in the accomplishment of a task ie to operate and work as a team (pre-dive, dive and post dive activities). If that aspect is not present, then all you have, really, is two solo divers diving in relatively close proximity.

Secondly, while an important portion of the syllabus is to impart a minimum level of knowledge and skills to the individual, an equally important portion of that course also has to be devoted to the development of the buddy system to a) work as a team and b) be able to address unforeseen situations (equipment malfunctions & physiological situations) as a team. (Thal's post about two divers having to assemble a fairly simple gizmo of some sort underwater comes to mind)

Unsupervised vs supervised. If most agencies advertized the unsupervised level as their end product, then the training and final testing has to be done to ensure that this has been achieved prior to certification. Personally, I have no problem diving with either type as long 1) the certification is represented as such and 2) I know somewhat in advance in order to prepare accordingly as I feel that once I am underwater, it is not the proper place nor time to become appraised of such aspect. However, my philosophy is entirely different if now considering a dive buddy for my son.

Lastly, diving in similar-like local conditions has to mean more than diving at the exact location at which the OW certification dives were conducted. I also personally think that, ideally, more than one diving sites should be used for the certification dives. I understand (and experience this every winter btw) that lakes will freeze up, up North, but at any other time of the year, I would see advantages in exposing the student divers to diverse but still local diving environment as part of their course (where feasible) and the particularities of each one (sea/lakes in Nova Scotia - combination of lake/quarry and river lakes (Ontario).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No questions needed. You can not fix human nature. The standards were set, and met by all in attendance. Some will go on to be better, others will get hurt, some will die, some will stop all together. Still not sounding familiar? To REALLY focus on what I said, take out the word gun, and insert scuba. Take out the statement carry a sling shot and insert go snorkelling on vacation.

Cheers
Eric


It is allways up to the student. Not the agency, instructor, govt. ect.

It IS the instructor's job to not hand a certification to someone they feel couldn't be trusted to follow their training without supervision ... unless standards specifically state that supervision is required. If standards are met, and the trust isn't there, then that's an indication that the standards are inadequate.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

It IS the instructor's job to not hand a certification to someone they feel couldn't be trusted to follow their training without supervision ... unless standards specifically state that supervision is required. If standards are met, and the trust isn't there, then that's an indication that the standards are inadequate.

Dependency upon supervision can be a learned behavior. If divers leave training and then do nothing but dive in resorts where they are led by the nose through every dive, then they will develop a dependence upon that treatment.

When teaching the dive planning portions of the OW class, I have had students tell me that their already-certified friends told them that they only need to learn that stuff during certification. They can forget it after that, they were told, because "in the real world" the DM takes care of everything. For a lot of divers, that "real world" is the only one they know.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Dependency upon supervision can be a learned behavior. If divers leave training and then do nothing but dive in resorts where they are led by the nose through every dive, then they will develop a dependence upon that treatment.

When teaching the dive planning portions of the OW class, I have had students tell me that their already-certified friends told them that they only need to learn that stuff during certification. They can forget it after that, they were told, because "in the real world" the DM takes care of everything. For a lot of divers, that "real world" is the only one they know.

My first dive trip after certification was to Belize. I had been certified for about 6 months by then ... and Cheng for a bit less than two months. We shared a boat with a couple who had been diving for 13 years, and had never dived without supervision. When they learned that we had been diving on our own since OW class they were appalled ... one of them asked us "Isn't that dangerous?"

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[waterpirate]

It IS the instructor's job to not hand a certification to someone they feel couldn't be trusted to follow their training without supervision ... unless standards specifically state that supervision is required. If standards are met, and the trust isn't there, then that's an indication that the standards are inadequate.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I am having a hard time following all this. The standards have been set by the agency's. The agency's crank out instructors. If the minimum standards as set forth by the agencies instructor have been met, It is not the instructors obligation to ensure that the student progresses anywhere beyond snorkel 101 unless they choose to do so. It is the students mis interpretation of the minimum standard that leads people into all sorts of trouble. when trouble comes, so does injury. At what point does the instructor cut the cord in todays progressive education model?
Eric

 

[boulderjohn]

I am having a hard time following all this. The standards have been set by the agency's. The agency's crank out instructors. If the minimum standards as set forth by the agencies instructor have been met, It is not the instructors obligation to ensure that the student progresses anywhere beyond snorkel 101 unless they choose to do so. It is the students mis interpretation of the minimum standard that leads people into all sorts of trouble. when trouble comes, so does injury. At what point does the instructor cut the cord in todays progressive education model?
Eric

The instructor is done at the end of the specific course the student took.

Bob's point is that all agencies currently teach students to dive without supervision. There is not a murmur about following a supervisor in OW training. Students are told how to plan for currents, how to plan dives using either tables or a computer (depending upon both the agency and the course), etc. There is not point whtsoever in which they are told to have someone else plan the dive and just follow that plan.

In reality though, that is how a lot of diving is done, and people just get used to it.