Divers can be strange

[Virus]FSLR2[]

So, do you think that once you take the class that you don't need to hone your skills? Do you think that the Certification is the end-all of the whole deal, or do you think that the certification is the starting point that allows opens the doorway to a new world, freeing you to explore both yourself and the area that you are certified in, to allow you to become a stronger "whatever you got your certification in"

Lemme guess, you took your Microsoft classes, got your MCSE, and then went out and got yourself a job, never to try to learn again. I've seen hundreds of those people, and we weed them out in the 1st week of their probationary period. They can talk the talk, but when it's time for them to walk the walk, they usually get lost in the weeds pretty quickly.

Now, I don't mean to criticize you. I don't know you, but it seemed pretty arrogant to come on here and down-talk cavers.

"Just like OW diving, it takes knowledge more than skill. You learn some rules, follow the rules and you can dive till your heart is content" - Knowledge is what gets you into problems, skill is what gets you out of them. Knowledge is gained from reading. I read a book about bricklaying, and I built a BBQ for my lanai, but you certainly wouldn't want me building your chimney.

I apologize if I took your statement out of context, but being able to do fubmle your way through something, guessing at every next step because you're in new territory, or being very comfortable in your environment and showing the ability to be calm due to having years of experience in that territory are not the same thing. True, you can go out and get your cavern certification and jump right into tunnel of your choice. You are certainly allowed at that time, but I can tell you that until you show the ability to keep proper bouyancy, trim, finning skills, proficiency with your gear and awareness of your surroundings, I'm sure you're not going to find very many people that are willing to follow behind you into that silty, unexplored cavern. They may follow you into the Ginnie Ballroom where it's clear because of the flow, but would they feel the same about hopping into a sinkhole with you to go see what's there?

I guess my point is, just because you have the cert, doesn't mean you're finished learning, you're just beginning. Don't stop learning, in whatever endeaver you choose, whether it's networking or diving, or Multi-Environment Basket Weaving .

I have 11 MCSE's working for me, and when I hired them, I requred them all to become CCNA and CCNP certified within the first 90 days of their employment, as well as becoming Certified BiCSI Installers, Panduit and Corning certified installers, just so they would have a firm understanding of the whole realm of the network, layers 1 through 7 not just the Microsoft view, which in the case of a bootcamp, is really just enough time to teach the test with alot of help from the braindumps out there.

I've used up 1/3 of my air, so I'm headed up.

-=V=-

 

[khel]

Virus]FSLR2[ once bubbled...

I have 11 MCSE's working for me, and when I hired them, I requred them all to become CCNA and CCNP certified within the first 90 days of their employment, as well as becoming Certified BiCSI Installers, Panduit and Corning certified installers, just so they would have a firm understanding of the whole realm of the network, layers 1 through 7 not just the Microsoft view, which in the case of a bootcamp, is really just enough time to teach the test with alot of help from the braindumps out there.

-=V=-

Do you need another one by chance

khel

 

[mcse_jacksonvil]

Point of fact, I have my MCSE, CCIE, A+, Network+, MCSD & MCDBA.
So I guess you could say I began my learning with my MCSE. I doubt I would be weeded out of many places based upon my knowledge, because if I could be weeded out, I would'nt be there to begin with. With over ten years of experience in IT, I barely rely on any of the above mentioned papers for anything more than resume' enhancement.

Second point of fact, I do not downtalk cavers in general. I do downtalk the attitude of those I have come in contact with thus far. I have made a strong effort to exclude those to whom this rule does not apply.

As for the relevant portion of your statement, I agree with you 100%. A cert is nothing but a license that says you can now perfect the skills you have been taught. Unfortunately, very few take this seriously and even fewer actually practice the skills outside of training unless they are commonplace skills which just so happen to be used routinely on every dive. I would think that with cavers, this percentage is higher, but I would also assume that it is not by much. I did not say my comments were the way it should be, I just said it was the way it is. I go take a class this weekend, and I guarantee you that when I go to Ginnie with my cave reels and other asst. caving equipment, that chip on the cave divers shoulders will suspicously disappear. This is despite the fact that my skills are no better than they are at this very moment. That was the point I was getting at.

Regardless, I did not want to ruin someones thread with a debate about cavers. So at this point I will gracefully back out. If cavers do not like the reputation they have earned themselves, then perhaps they should make efforts to change it. Again I apologize to the ones who are not responsible for this in the first place. But since you mentioned arrogant, I will leave with this account of my last trip to Ginnie 3 weeks ago.

5 Friends and myself secured a table at Ginnie, placed all of our equipment on it and proceeded to begin suiting up for our dives. Two cave divers came right along and proceeded to dump their equipment right on top of ours and begin gearing up. When I politely asked them to move to another table (of which there were plenty available, just a slightly further walk from the water) they replied, "we'll be out of here in just a few minutes, you can wait till then". In my younger years I would have simply doused their cave reels and wetsuits with charcoal lighter and tossed in a match. They should consider themselves lucky that I am now a more calm individual. It is this type of attitude I have experienced on not one, but several occasions at Ginnie and should kinda give you an idea of where I am coming from. I don't care what classes you have taken, what you know or can do, even my 5 year old daughter has mastered basic manners and in my opinion, that makes her ten times the person the cavers in my account above will ever be.

 

[bgbill]

mcse_jacksonvil once bubbled...
well 100,
I disagree, though you may be right when it comes down to experienced cave divers.
I guarantee you I can go take a cave diving course this weekend and at the end of that course go down to ginnie and dive the caves. I doubt my physical skills will have improved much but my knowledge would be enhanced and I doubt anyone would tell me I could'nt enter the cave as long as I had the proper cert.
Classes teach knowledge, and they will teach you some very basic skills, but I doubt anyone here would disagree when i say that no one walks out of their classes with finely honed Skills. yet despite the fact that my knowledge has advanced and my skills have not, I'm still a cave diver. So how can you contest that it is skill that makes a cave diver?

On the other hand, I will give you this, skills will keep the cave diver alive in the event something goes awry. Sadly, the many deaths represent my point to be more accurate than your because of that reason. For the record, I did'nt say that this is the way it should be, just that this is the way it is.

I am not here to stick up for cave divers as they usually are a strange breed of diver.

But if you don't have the proper pre-requisite courses and dives, you can not go directly into a cave diving course and get your certification.

You must start out with Cavern Diving, Introduction into Cave Diving and then get Sponsored to get your full Cave Certification.

Some of the stranger and holier than thou attitude divers I have seen and read posts about are the DIR types of divers.

 

[divad]

The funniest ones are the alpha males at the bottom of their game. And the beauty is, they don't know who they are.

 

[Orlando Eric]

The issue of "strange" has not been clearly defined to me but I will throw my salt to the sea all the same. If by strange we are discussing the fact that cave divers do not seem friendly in as they will not participate in a coversion with you, I will have to defend that to some point. Some of us love to speak to other people and share our experiences as well as hear some new ones. There are people who LOVE going on a dive charter with twenty people and hearing the latest tales of Truk Lagoon or Back in the day when there where no BC's and we drank from the tank till it was dry and pulled a cord which almost always gave us another 500# to get to the surface with. There are people though who dive to get away. They do not want to talk to "people" they want to fly along with the fish with no traffic noise, cell phones, or fax machines. When we are talking about the springs Ginnie etc that is where a GREAT many novice divers go and I am sure that the Cavers get jaded to the newbie jumping around them like a spastic puppy. I try to imagine myself in their shoes. Here I am with 25# of specialty gear, line reels, lights, redunant contgencey SCUBA and all sorts of Gizmo's complete with a HARDhat! and someone comes bouncing along in Divers direct shorts with the big diagonal stripe, a skull and bones hat with a Dive naked T-shirt and inquirers, "You gonna dive in the CAVE? Man that is crazy, I'd never do that." I do not condone the standoffish attitude but I understand where it comes from. I also realize that they (the cavers) do not know if I am a serious diver who regards planning and predive preparation as the pillars of a good diver, or if lke many I simply "jam" my tanks screw the thingy on and depend on my brand new computer to "tell me what to do."

 

[Orlando Eric]

The issue of "strange" has not been clearly defined to me but I will throw my salt to the sea all the same. If by strange we are discussing the fact that cave divers do not seem friendly in as they will not participate in a coversion with you, I will have to defend that to some point. Some of us love to speak to other people and share our experiences as well as hear some new ones. There are people who LOVE going on a dive charter with twenty people and hearing the latest tales of Truk Lagoon or Back in the day when there where no BC's and we drank from the tank till it was dry and pulled a cord which almost always gave us another 500# to get to the surface with. There are people though who dive to get away. They do not want to talk to "people" they want to fly along with the fish with no traffic noise, cell phones, or fax machines. When we are talking about the springs Ginnie etc that is where a GREAT many novice divers go and I am sure that the Cavers get jaded to the newbie jumping around them like a spastic puppy. I try to imagine myself in their shoes. Here I am with 25# of specialty gear, line reels, lights, redunant contgencey SCUBA and all sorts of Gizmo's complete with a HARDhat! and someone comes bouncing along in Divers direct shorts with the big diagonal stripe, a skull and bones hat with a Dive naked T-shirt and inquirers, "You gonna dive in the CAVE? Man that is crazy, I'd never do that." I do not condone the standoffish attitude but I understand where it comes from. I also realize that they (the cavers) do not know if I am a serious diver who regards planning and predive preparation as the pillars of a good diver, or if like many I simply "jam" my tanks screw the thingy on and depend on my brand new computer to "tell me what to do."

 

[8buck]

Hey just my two psi... I tend to agree with the rest about the attiude some cavers have. I personally no a couple off this board and they seem to think they are the inventors of scuba diving. Diving caves does require some schooling on the latest and greatest equipment and some saftey stuff and then the basic gas mixing. But who taught the instructors on caving. Back when the older crowd was diving they just went and did it if they had the nerve. But now everything cost money. I am sure there are plenty of people who are out there who would like to get a cert in cave diving. But look at the price in equipment and gases. The last time I was at ginnie i saw some cavers pull up in hummers lol. Granted they may have the money but who is to say they are better divers than the other. i am sure when they started diving they were like a new born dolphin up and down flopping around like fish out of the water. So they spen more time diving than some but does that mean we all would rather work than dive? I help out every one and I would buddy up with anyone. They all need to start some where. And if me and buddy were diving with people who were so called newbies then I would try and keep an eye on them for Saftey reasons. We all love diving and we all should try help out the next if not then your the one people are writing about on this thread... anyways later

 

[aujax]

By "strange" I meant that there just seem to be a lot of people working at dive shops and taking part in the sport who are just a little off kilter - their social skills aren't quite up to par or they just seem kind of spacey. Who knows why this is, though I have also met some perfectly normal divers.

It's interesting to hear everyones' opinion on the arrogant caver question though. When I was at Ginnie three weeks ago, I met two cavers who were quite willing to discuss it with me, while not neglecting their dive checklists. I also ran into a guy who looked at my dive chart and exclaimed "Tables!?!?" I said, "yeah, so what?" He replied, "well, the profile is just sooo different for cave divers. I haven't seen a table in years!" All the while he had this little smirk on his face that seemed to say "I'm so far ahead of you!" Suffice it to say, there's no excuse for rudeness - like taking someone else's picnic table - and in my opinion some of you here are just giving excuses. If a caver doesn't wish to be disturbed all he has to say is "if you'll excuse me, I have to go through my checklist now."

Now that I've made myself look like miss manners, I will try to gracefully bow out...

 

[Virus]FSLR2[]

I tend to agree with aujax that the realm of scuba diving has more than it's share of people with eccentricities. I could be accused of possibly be one. Maybe it's the type of people that it draws, maybe it's "bubbles on the brain". I don't know.

There is also a huge difference between dive specialties as well. Some people prefer to go and look, some collect, some hunt, and some take pictures. The diver with a camera seems to be more of a slow paced and wandering diver, whereas the hunter-types rush all over. While some differences in style are certainly mandated by the goal of the dive, it just seems that most experienced divers have a certain style, which usually works well with other experienced divers that have the same goals. Maybe it's just me you can see it by looking at the differences in how they dive.

Back to the thread...

I know a few cave divers, and for the most part, they are very introverted people; meaning that they are very quiet and keep to themselves, avoiding contact anything more than casual contact with anyone that is not known to them. Most introverted people prefer to choose who they talk with, not to be chosen.

As far as attitude, well I haven't run into that much, but then again, I don't do much fresh water diving so the majority of FreshWater Divers I run into are at the LDS and on my occasional trips to the springs.

As far as dumping their gear on top of yours so they could get into the water first, I think they deserved an eye-jammie for even attempting that maneuver. At a minimum their gear would need to be cleaned up a little or maybe serviced because of all the sand it got in it after it fell into the dirt. There is no excuse for rudeness.

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