Divers death

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Genesis once bubbled...

Fact is, I STRONGLY disagree with the "official agency" view on drysuits and their use as BCs. That's why I decided to teach myself how to dive dry (in my pool, and then in open water) rather than take an "official" course.

The "bubble shift" if using a suit as a BC is really disconcerting for someone not used to it, and worse, your exhaust has suddenly moved from where you've found it since you started diving (from the inflator to the suit's dump), etc.

I just got my DS cert last fall. Trying to use the suit as a BC as they instruct not only didn't make sense, I found it was much harder to control. I've since developed the habit of keeping just enough air in the suit to prevent a squeeze & that's it. Other than that, it's about the same as wet.

That aside, reading all the posts of what happened, it's more than a little alarming.
 
WOW, just when I think I can't be shocked anymore by this horrible incident I read these studnets were doing a DS course? You must be kidding me, that's atleast as bad as if they were doing an AWO class when you consider that the diver who scewed up sharing air is reported to have "shot up" toward the surface. To do a dry suit course at this depth under these conditions is so stupid. BTW, I don't know anyone who uses their DS as a BDC as PADI says, when I took the course my PADI instructor told not to follow PADIs advice becasue it's so dumb.


Also, in terms of my early comments about solo diving, I think solo diving IS, in general, much more dangerous than diving with a well trained buddy. But, I would never feel that I had the right to tell another informed diver that they should never divr alone, I think with the right gear and training you can reduce the risk enough so that it is at an acceptable level for many divers. And again I have dove many times with CAD and every time I've went there have been solo divers. While many of us get into the team aspect of diving, lots of divers, escpially "old school" guys are very indvidualistic, they don't have any close firends that dive and they don't want to paired up with some stroke.


Back to this accident, I wonder if these guys were diving air, if so (as pointed out earlier) I'm sure narcosis was a factor. The Poling is such a nice wreck,but, I really feel some people take her too lightly, I mean really 100', 35 deg water and you go in with one tank and no buddy........and that guy that messed up the air sharing, I still can't over that. What are you doing on this wreck at this time of year when you can't even perform the most basic and important skill. And I still think my guess is going to turn out to be the case: the donator had a working second stage but was too narced/panicing/poorly training to deploy it and then he lost control of the his bouyancy. 100' wreck in NE in Feb: that's a though place to discover you don't have a grasp on even the most basic skills. How would you feel if that guy was your buddy? Either he thought "man this diving is easy, I'm doing a 100' wreck and I didn't even train for sh**t" or he just doesn't have the right head for this kind of diving.

I would never do a dive like this without a buddy that I knew was well trained and would keep his cool, I mean sharing air out in the open on the deck with 25foot vis, that's something any competent diver can do 100% of the time.

This whole thing is really hard to swallow and it's very distrubing. My next dive on the Poling (I was supposed to go this weekend, but, the weather is going to be a really bad) is going to be really strange. I love the wreck and I'm just starting to explore her insides, but, it's going to be a little freaky.
 
And I still think my guess is going to turn out to be the case: the donator had a working second stage but was too narced/panicing/poorly training to deploy it and then he lost control of the his bouyancy.
It is rare these days to see someone without an octo/backup second stage...especially a student. I don't think the agency would have allowed that anyway...although I am beginning to wonder if any standards were being followed here in the first place.
 
O-ring,

Regarding Gear - Lets see what the inventory comes back with. If he did not have an octo/back up, that would make CAD liable, I think you need a backup as far as there boat policy goes. This dive would be great with a nice mix for a low EAD.

Eric
 
I found out today that both the donator and the deceased had secondary air sources, the guy that died was was diving an ATX 200 as a primary and a viper octo (no pony).


I never dove this with guy, but, I also heard he had been diving for less than a year and did not have many dives. Everyone I've talk to that knew him has said that he no place on the Poling this time of year and that he came off as overconfident in his ability given how little experince he had.

We all know the saying "There are old divers and there are bold divers, but, there are no old, bold divers."
Just because you have the cash to go take your OW and AWO in the same year doesn't make you an advanced diver.

On an aside, the other day I was at an LDS and these two guys were talking to the owner about how they needed a reg for "serious" diving and that they were even looking into getting their own compresor, then I heard the owner say to them "so when we did we schedual your first OW class for again?" scary.....
 
When I bought my gear was I taking my class, and I asked for a "serious" regulator.

Why?

Because I had every intention of using it to clean and otherwise work on my boat underwater, and you can get some blood pumping that way. It can be reasonably strenuous work, and can require some airflow capability, depending on exactly what you intend to do down there.

Its not particularly dangerous, in that you're all of 3-5' from the surface essentially all of the time, but asking for a "serious" regulator for such a purpose is in no way 'scary". Its smart.

Without knowing more about what these guys were talking about I'd say you were overreacting.
 
Well, let me elaborate/clarify a bit more and then you can decide if I was overreacting (I probably was): this person was not asking for a serious reg they were acting for a reg to do "serious diving" they were telling the owner that they did not plan on doing "regular" diving for long - I took serious to mean deep diving. They also said they wanted to get a compresor and fill their own tanks.

On one had I guess it's fine to be enthusastic, I sure was when I got my OW, but, I think there's an attitue out there with a lot of people that it's all about going deep and they want to start doing that was fast as anyone will give them an AWO card. Now in this I could be wrong, but, my impression was that they were a couple of guys who were going to buy nice rec gear, take a PADI OW class, and start doing deep dives ASAP. Lots of people think that this fine and that asking for a min. number of dives to take an advanced course is stupid ,and, that people are ready with 20 dives to take AOW. I don't think this is case, I don't care if someone is the most talented diver in the world, you can't develope the instincts needed for advanced diving without alot of dives.

I might have misjudging these guys (I don't know them at all), I would just much rather see people being humble and saying that one day they hope to do some deep diving, then assume that without having having dove that they were already on the path to "serious" diving. IMO, those are the guys that get in trouble. I probabley would not have reacted at all to those guys, if it were not that I was just learning how this guy that died had been diving for a year and liked to "talk the talk." The people I know that do real deep diving, have 1,000plus dives, etc. don't brag, and they respect the ocean, it's not some race to get crack 100' in your first year.

What do you think?

If this guy that died got his OW less than a year ago, how many dry suit dives did he have? Lots of people say that if you have a couple of dives in a pool you're good to go, for me it took a while before everything was automatic.
 
and much depends on your training and WHERE you learned to dive.

My cert dives were done right at the 60' maximum - the final two were done at 57' to the sand. Why? Because there is really nowhere to dive around here that is more shallow than that, other than the jetties.

Seriously.

Even the "weenie" dives around here - those less than a couple of miles from shore - are in the 70-80' profile range. I was doing them almost immediately after getitng my OW.

Why? Because I was trained under those conditions, and was comfortable.

Now it DID take me a while to get to the 110' that I dive in now a good part of the time. But "a while" wasn't 500 dives - it was more like 50ish. My AOW "deep" was a joke - I had already been deeper, on many occasions, than the "certification" dive for that purpose called for. I was already familiar with the issues involved, with the higher gas consumption, and the added risks.

A think a lot also has to do with how often you dive. If you dive a few times a year, but do it all in concentrations, that's not nearly as good as if you dive a good part of the year, at least a couple of times a week. I do the latter. The only reason I'm not wet right now is that the water is pretty cool, my buddy's tolerances have been exceeded, the weather has blown tomatoes and my boat is down right now for spring maintenance. Those issues will be resolved here within the next couple of weeks, and then it will be back in the water for me. I had about a month lay-off here, and my speargun trigger finger is getting itchy :)

If you learned to dive in the carribbean in 20' of water, then no, you're not going to be ready for 90' in 10 dives. But if you learned in 60' of relatively murky water, and everything beyond the one place you were certified was 70-80' or so, in 10-20 dives you might well be ready to be approaching the triple digits, depending on how much of an effort you made personally towards skill acquisition and familiarity with your gear.

I have a general rule that I only make one change at a time in my configuration. So, for example, this summer I will dive double HP100s. In OW. I'll do two dives with one set of tanks, sequentially, without changing over. Why? Because then its one change to incorporate deco procedures, or perhaps cavern, or whatever I do next. Second, I gain redundancy on my 110' spearfishing dives, in that I have two manifolded sources of gas, two firsts, and two seconds. All the better to stay alive with.

The compressor, by the way, is not that big a deal. Depends on why you want it. If you have your own boat it makes perfect sense, as going to the shop to get filled between two diving days SUCKS. Been there, done that, and I hate it. You're subject to their hours and whims, and if they are busy, you're hosed. How many tanks do you want to have laying around the house? Why more than you need for one day of diving? No good reason if you have your own fill station - and can afford it. There is also a significant cost savings on an amortized basis.

BTW my drysuit was a non-issue within a couple of dives - but I don't use it as a BC. I dive with the dump all the way open and put air in to avoid squeeze - that's all. On ascent its "not there" as a task loading issue, since it just bubbles out - no manual intervention required. On decent its easy - get squeezed, give a (small) shot of air, ok, we're back to it. It has little if any effect on dynamic buoyancy dove this way - I still use my wing for my BC....

Anyway, some stuff to think about....
 
Ive been following this discussion for a few days, and I think that none of these people had any right to be out there this time of year. Why can I say that??? Because i live here, and I dive up in Gloucester all the time. I have almost 500 dives, and I take December, January and February off usually. Its a thing called WINTER. it makes things cold, especially the WATER!!! Most people that are diving in 35 degree water are not diving with the proper equipment to be safe, nevermind doing a 95 foot dive. I have dove in GLoucester all winter some years. It is not fun... you have to worry about freeflows, and ice ups of your regulators, and your hands getting numb from the cold, and your face freezing off. IMHO, they should have never been on the CAD doing an advanced class in February and also doing a drysuit class... Shame on that instructor... Bad decision buddy... IMHO, the deceased also had no business being in the water that day either... that is my opinion... I dont care if some of you dont like it.... Its the hard TRUTH that is hard to swallow sometimes...
 
LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Ive been following this discussion for a few days, and I think that none of these people had any right to be out there this time of year. Why can I say that??? Because i live here, and I dive up in Gloucester all the time. I have almost 500 dives, and I take December, January and February off usually. Its a thing called WINTER. it makes things cold, especially the WATER!!! Most people that are diving in 35 degree water are not diving with the proper equipment to be safe, nevermind doing a 95 foot dive. I have dove in GLoucester all winter some years. It is not fun... you have to worry about freeflows, and ice ups of your regulators, and your hands getting numb from the cold, and your face freezing off. IMHO, they should have never been on the CAD doing an advanced class in February and also doing a drysuit class... Shame on that instructor... Bad decision buddy... IMHO, the deceased also had no business being in the water that day either... that is my opinion... I dont care if some of you dont like it.... Its the hard TRUTH that is hard to swallow sometimes...

I can't disagree. There is no way someone with only 10-20 dives (to whatever depth) is ready for a 100 fsw North Atlantic dive in February.

Its far more than hitting the depth and looking around. You've got to practice skills until your response to an emergency becomes a muscle skill that you can perform flawlessly while maintaining perfect buoyancy. This takes more than 20 dives.

Like you, I will dive all year round. However, I won't even consider a CAD winter dive without Argon, doubles and a similarly configured buddy because, IMHO, extreme cold water diving is not recreational.

Unfortunately, the deceased was way out of his depth, with improper equipment and an unsafe attitude. Anyone who disagrees does not need to look beyond the results of the dive. Res Ipsa Loquitor.
 

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