Diving advice ? Carnival Cruise

[gregor1234]

Sorry I am late in posting. Rustyrig is exactly right about calculating your SW weighting from you FW weighting but you can only make this calculation if 1) as rustyrig says, you know the exact weight of yourself and your equipment or if 2) as I say if you know the specific gravity of yourself + your equipment. Many of us do not know the weight of our equipment especially when rented. Without knowing you + equipment weight or density there is no way to calulate your SW weighting using only your FW weighting. You need more than just your FW weighting and that "more" is something few people have actually bothered to measure or know.

A word about wall diving in Grand Cayman. Limitations on novice diving propounded by certifying agencies are well thought out but are based on the general case. The conditions on most of the Cayman wall dives are special in that they are about the most benign conditions you can imagine. With *proper leadership* (which Dee obviously did not have the benefit of), the 90 foot wall dives in Cayman are the perverbial "piece of cake" even for novice divers. Novices should heed what the DM says about gas management for that depth but the water is clear and warm even at depth, any bottom encountered is coarse sand that does not silt up, current when it is present is usually a baby's breath and the wall is almost never more that 2-300 yards of near-glass water from a nice beach (often closer). The boat does not anchor (prohibited) or drift but moors to a pre-positioned bouy and the mooring line is used for descent/ascent. Cayman operators often take novices out on the wall but *usually* will require them to do one orientation dive first to assess basic skills and to iron out problems like Dee encountered here. Obviously there is no time for an orientation dive if you'er just off the cruise ship for an afternoon.

Now there are many, many newbies and once-a-year'ers who dive cayman and the operaters know it. And the operators willingly take thse "underqualified" folks along on 90-100 ft wall dives and they do it all the time because the walls are the big attraction in Cayman. Is this terrible? You may think so but I think not because the environment is extreemly benign and most operators taylor the conduct of these dives to take special care of the uininitiated while allowing more experienced individuals to go off and do their own thing. In constructing their dives this way, doing this they on a responsibility above and beyond that engedered by operators who simply "provide transportation". The DM in this case was not up to the task of providing that extra measure of supervision. Neither was he up to telling the customer that they should dive a less advanced dive with some other operator. In the case of Don Fosters, doing this would quite literally have been a case of pointing out the eden rock reef shore entry and dive stand about 3 blocks away.

I've never gone out with Don Fosters but I've only ever heard of very good things about them prior to this. I can see how a tired, overworked DM who maybe just prior might have had problems with a bunch who wouldn't listen and wandered off might get cheesed, but it is the measure of professionalism to take this in stride and react with composure and restraint when dealing with customers. Especially novices.

 

[deneenthom]

Gregor1234 - Thanks for your post - Dive was at 8:30 a.m. - last Thursday -

The reason I got certified to begin with was for this Trip - I was totally "jazzed" about going to the caymans and cozumel - this was my 40th birthday present to myself.

I personally was not aware of the depth of the dive - depths were not discussed during the pre dive talk on the boat - - - There were a lot of newly certified people on my dive with the same card I had - PADI Open Water, (not advanced). We were warned by the DM on the boat to not panic, and to not use our air too soon, otherwise they would consider us to be a "hoover vacuum".

Most of you are right - I probably would have been MUCH MORE comfortable with a 45 foot dive - I did not know that this was beyond my certification - had I been told, by my Padi Certification Instructor, or The Don Fosters Dive Shop, I would have not taken the dive in the first place, I probably would have chosen a dive site and dive operator that would have taken me out privately - instead of the "cattle call" of the boat - - - there were 19 people on board the boat - 2 dive masters, 1 underwater photographer.

There was some current that day - It was not sunny, since there were thunderstorms and clouds over the water. There was a "line" that the boat had out - I don't know if it was anchored or not. . . . My lack of ability to see the "rest of the group" caused me to ascend in the first place.

thanks for your posts
dee

 

[Web Monkey]

There were a lot of newly certified people on my dive with the same card I had - PADI Open Water, (not advanced). We were warned by the DM on the boat to not panic, and to not use our air too soon, otherwise they would consider us to be a "hoover vacuum".

You had no way of knowing it, but this was a warning.

When the DM says "Don't panic!" what he's really saying is that he's going to do something that's going to scare the h*ll our of at least some of the group.

Having the DM tell you to "not be a hoover" tells you that he will be taking you on a dive where he expects some of the divers to run out of air quickly.

Air consumption is controlled by the diver's emotional state, physical condition, bouyancy control, trim and drag in the water, to name a few factors. Telling a new diver to not be a "hoover vacuum" is like telling fire to "not be hot". All new divers are hoovers.

Air consumption improves as your diving improves (when you get your buoyancy nailed down, can remain horizontal, stay relaxed, tuck all your danglies away, learn how to fin efficiently with your particular style of fins, etc.)

Terry

 

[Cetacea]

There are also a lot of burned out DM/Instructors that will purposely take divers to a depth beyond their limitations as to get out of the water as soon as possible. I know many like this. Dee, you did a fantastic job considering all that was going on around you. Please don't let this experience ruin diving for you. There are a lot of us out here that would have treated you much better and still love to share the joy of diving. Yes, there were a few minor things that could have been done differently, but take it as a lesson learned, albeit the hard way. Come back to diving; find a better store near your home to get acquainted with. PM me if you want/need any suggestions. Don’t give up!

 

[annie]

Dee, what a horrible experience. I'm an experienced diver but sometimes horrible DMs still upset me . . . .especially when I just want to dive and have fun, they can be a real disappointment.

One thing I have discovered is that that kind of DM often reacts like that when they know they were at fault. They're very defensive of their egos.

Dee, don't let this guy rob you of something you wanted to do. Please persevere with a different DM / instructor, make your concerns known to them and only dive if you feel reassured enough that they will give you the attention you need.

Obviously as has been pointed out you have a responsibility to look after yourself, I feel that making it clear to your DM that you want extra attention is the first step to taking this responsbility.

 

[Jeyung]

Bah, talk to a Carnival rep again. The folks on the boat hear nothing but complaints all day.

I also can't help and wonder if this was a newly certified DM?

Not sure if this would result in anything but Don Foster's does offer PADI courses up to DM, might want to have a chat with PADI, maybe they can look into this as well. I would be scared of any DiveMaster or organization that does not place safety above all else.

 

[msedivingdoc]

Gregor1234 - Thanks for your post - Dive was at 8:30 a.m. - last Thursday -

The reason I got certified to begin with was for this Trip - I was totally "jazzed" about going to the caymans and cozumel - this was my 40th birthday present to myself.

I personally was not aware of the depth of the dive - depths were not discussed during the pre dive talk on the boat - - - There were a lot of newly certified people on my dive with the same card I had - PADI Open Water, (not advanced). We were warned by the DM on the boat to not panic, and to not use our air too soon, otherwise they would consider us to be a "hoover vacuum".

Most of you are right - I probably would have been MUCH MORE comfortable with a 45 foot dive - I did not know that this was beyond my certification - had I been told, by my Padi Certification Instructor, or The Don Fosters Dive Shop, I would have not taken the dive in the first place, I probably would have chosen a dive site and dive operator that would have taken me out privately - instead of the "cattle call" of the boat - - - there were 19 people on board the boat - 2 dive masters, 1 underwater photographer.

There was some current that day - It was not sunny, since there were thunderstorms and clouds over the water. There was a "line" that the boat had out - I don't know if it was anchored or not. . . . My lack of ability to see the "rest of the group" caused me to ascend in the first place.

thanks for your posts
dee

Allright, things became even worse.... evaluate her most recient post

SHE did not know that a dive below 60ft is out of her training!! This is really the type of pattern you see in new divers. I assume because you posted here you can read. This is what all of those new to SCUBA need to do, READ! Your instructor will not tell you everything, but if you read the books will tell a novice diver how far they should go like 20 times.

Also, how do you limit air use??? I hope he didn't mean to hold your breath! Just breath, when you run out of air, yoou run out of air. Probally every dive I've ever been on I run out of "air time" before I reach any other limit. That thing on your back will run out sometime, so quit conserving it. Just dive....leave conservation to latter instruction.

Finally you didn't know the depth of the dive???!!! This just makes me look at you as a diver and affirm your fears... If you get in the water you are going to die!!!

Now to be nice...take this as a lesson like I did. Read everything you have again and make notes like it is a college class you must pass. Find an instructor to take you through another class that will benifit you, not AOW yet. Dive shallow several times and in pools. Be familar with your gear...rental or own. Practice all those OW skills till you're sick...do it in your head at the office. Now after all this you can return to the ocean and dive and not die. Good Luck

 

[Cetacea]

It's no doubt to me why so many new divers never come back to the water, between being mistreated by "professionals" and ridiculed by other divers... Dee, keep at it. Yes, you still have a lot to learn. We all do, divemasters and instructors included. However, being chastised in a public forum is the least appropriate way to *help*. It’s nothing but pure arrogance if you think you have learned it all and oh so easy to point your fingers at someone else’s mistakes.

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

Allright, things became even worse.... evaluate her most recient post

Agree 110%

But, to spin this into a positive for you Dee I would like to point out a few things that you may have overlooked:

1. You didn't mention surface conditions so I will make the assumption that they were calm. This is where I see 99.9% of lake certified divers get hurt when making their first boat dive in blue water. Please find someone that can instruct you on proper boat entry/exit before you take a ladder to the head or become a bungy diver.

2. You mentioned "Cattle Boat" with 19+ divers. Get used to it if you plan to keep diving. Dive boat operators try to fill to capacity because fuel and instructors don't come cheap. Think of it as an opportunity to meet new people.

3. Take responsibility for your dives. If the DM doesn't cover all aspects of the dive in the predive brief then it is YOUR responsibility to ask questions. If you don't you will only make a bad situation worse.

4. Everything that the DM covered or should have covered needs to be reiterated between you and your dive buddy. EVEN IF YOU JUST MET THEM! If you have problem areas (bouyancy, airhog, ears) you need to state that and, in turn, ask them if there is anything that you should be aware of.

Lastly, I will give you my list of what I expect to be covered from a DM. As always, your mileage may vary:

Max Depth
Max Bottom Time
Ascent/Descent procedures
Hand Signals
Boat exit/entry procedures
Dive site orientation (currents, fish, hazards, etc.)
What to do if ..... <- insert common problems here such as your ears not equalizing, lost buddy, out of air, seperated from group, etc.)
At what PSI do you call the dive and begin your ascent to the surface
Safety stop depth/time/procedures

That list is in no particular order, but I suggest you write it down and put it in your log book. If a DM skips over anything and you don't bother to ask then you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[deneenthom]

This issue has been beat up enough - Mistakes were made - yes - I'm done being criticized on this board by people like Rustyrig, and MSE Diving Doc - I have read everything you have written - - - for the nice people who have said nice things, and have emialed me privately - thanks for all of your support, and advice, -
NO more mean things will be accepted- this board is done - dee