Diving advice ? Carnival Cruise

[Hex]

Allright, things became even worse.... evaluate her most recient post

SHE did not know that a dive below 60ft is out of her training!! This is really the type of pattern you see in new divers. I assume because you posted here you can read. This is what all of those new to SCUBA need to do, READ! Your instructor will not tell you everything, but if you read the books will tell a novice diver how far they should go like 20 times.

Also, how do you limit air use??? I hope he didn't mean to hold your breath! Just breath, when you run out of air, yoou run out of air. Probally every dive I've ever been on I run out of "air time" before I reach any other limit. That thing on your back will run out sometime, so quit conserving it. Just dive....leave conservation to latter instruction.

Finally you didn't know the depth of the dive???!!! This just makes me look at you as a diver and affirm your fears... If you get in the water you are going to die!!!

Now to be nice...take this as a lesson like I did. Read everything you have again and make notes like it is a college class you must pass. Find an instructor to take you through another class that will benifit you, not AOW yet. Dive shallow several times and in pools. Be familar with your gear...rental or own. Practice all those OW skills till you're sick...do it in your head at the office. Now after all this you can return to the ocean and dive and not die. Good Luck

Do you really think you are helping anyone with this brand of sarcasm and smartass remarks? I really don't get this self righteous mentality. Maybe you don't mean to come off this way, but there’s no denying that you have. I think if you shared your knowledge in a more constructive, less judgmental way it would be better received. No one likes being talked to like they are an idiot when they are simply asking for help...............

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

Do you really think you are helping anyone with this brand of sarcasm and smartass remarks?

Do you really think it is beneficial to the diver to play along and blame everything on the DM? Do you think that the diver in question is above criticism?

I think due to the "warm and fuzzy" training new divers receive these days they loose the understanding that this sport can take your life at any moment. If you are an ill-prepared diver you can get gravely injured or cause serious injuries to others through your actions.

If the DM did a half*****ed predive brief then it is the responsibility of every diver on the boat to ask questions before getting in the water. Not only of the DM, but of their buddy as well.

I am still interested in hearing the DM's side of the story...

 

[Cetacea]

I don't think anyone is blaming *just* the dive master. Quite a few people have pointed out places where the diver has room for improvement. I don't seem to remember my open water instructor ever telling me what was supposed to be covered in a briefing. It wasn't until I became an instructor that I relaized what a dis-service I had been given by the previous professionals I have worked with. 9 times out of ten when a newer diver makes a mistake it is due to an instructor or divemasters lack of clarity when providing the instruction! I know this from personal experiance. I know there have been times where my students did exaclty what I asked them to, and it was wrong because *I* explained it incorrectly. We will never hear the DMs side of view. There are few of us in the diving community that are able to admit we were wrong...but many that like point and and pass judgement.

 

[annie]

1RustyRig, don't you think that beginner divers are, by definition, unprepared? What else can they do but ask for assistance? As for the DM's side of the story, I would be very curious too to see how he defends humiliating a paying customer by yelling at her while she has blood coming out of her. In fact I would love to hear that Some DM he is. What a man, oh yeah. What a professional!

I don't condone the warm fuzzy stuff either, when there is something more important to be pointed out. That's been done - Dee needs to get more help and instruction. In fact, that's what she tried to get. What the hell else do you want from this thread, you sound just like one of those posturing DMs who hate beginners or anyone who asks for help. I won't be reading this thread anymore.

Do you really think it is beneficial to the diver to play along and blame everything on the DM? Do you think that the diver in question is above criticism?

I think due to the "warm and fuzzy" training new divers receive these days they loose the understanding that this sport can take your life at any moment. If you are an ill-prepared diver you can get gravely injured or cause serious injuries to others through your actions.

If the DM did a hal*********ed predive brief then it is the responsibility of every diver on the boat to ask questions before getting in the water. Not only of the DM, but of their buddy as well.

I am still interested in hearing the DM's side of the story...

 

[Hex]

Do you really think it is beneficial to the diver to play along and blame everything on the DM? Do you think that the diver in question is above criticism?

I think due to the "warm and fuzzy" training new divers receive these days they loose the understanding that this sport can take your life at any moment. If you are an ill-prepared diver you can get gravely injured or cause serious injuries to others through your actions.

If the DM did a hal*********ed predive brief then it is the responsibility of every diver on the boat to ask questions before getting in the water. Not only of the DM, but of their buddy as well.

I am still interested in hearing the DM's side of the story...

I never said it was strictly the DM's fault. The truth is we will never know what part the DM or for that matter the instructor that trained her played in this whole situation. My point was that when you are a "professional" diver taking out a "beginner" diver you have an obligation to them, period. I am not playing along, only giving the benefit of the doubt based on the information.

It is obvious to most people that Dee came here reaching out for help regarding the situations. She may have made mistakes during her dive and I don't think she ever denied that, but then again she is a beginner and should be viewed as such. Trying to analyze the situation just to point out her flaws doesn't help. You guys really need work on your people skills if that’s what you think. You can share information without making a person feel stupid for asking.

If you think that being a smartass and questioning whether a person can even read is the way to bully someone into becoming a good diver, well I hope I am never saddled with you as a dive buddy on a boat.

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

I would be very curious too to see how he defends humiliating a paying customer by yelling at her while she has blood coming out of her. In fact I would love to hear that Some DM he is. What a man, oh yeah. What a professional!

Don't you mean "alleged" yelling? I still believe in hearing both sides of the story before I make up my mind...Sorry if I am not loading up on the band wagon with everyone else, but I just find it hard to believe that on a boat with 19+ divers on it NO ONE corrected the DM or asked additional questions in the predive. With that many divers on the boat, chances are high that you have some experienced divers on board who would have / should have stepped in.

you sound just like one of those posturing DMs who hate beginners or anyone who asks for help.

Yeah, that's me alright :icorolley

This is an open forum where everyone is entitled to an opinion. I haven't made any remarks to any of the posters here that could be considered personal attacks. I am pointing out what I see as obvious failures in the system.

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

I am not playing along, only giving the benefit of the doubt based on the information.

I can respect that, but what about the benefit of the doubt to the dive operator? I just would hate to see a good dive shop get slandered with misinformation or a skewed perspective. Maybe we should email the dive co and see if the DM would care to respond?

Trying to analyze the situation just to point out her flaws doesn't help. You guys really need work on your people skills if that’s what you think. You can share information without making a person feel stupid for asking.

Maybe my points came across harshly, but I still stand by what I said. No one here was pointing out that the whole scenario could have been avoided if personal responsibility for one's safety was taken.

If you think that being a smartass and questioning whether a person can even read is the way to bully someone into becoming a good diver, well I hope I am never saddled with you as a dive buddy on a boat.

I don't recall ever making any remarks inregards to anyone's literacy.

 

[StSomewhere]

The important lesson to be learned is that the DM or dive op or cruise line may or may not give a rats arse about you and your experience level or certification level or anything else. They are basically in the business of providing boat rides and renting tanks and equipment. It sounds harsh, but you need to learn to be responsible for you, reread Rusty's and Divedoc's comments and see how they view you, that should tell you everything you need to know. It does make you wonder why some people bother to stay in the business, though...

 

[Hex]

I don't recall ever making any remarks inregards to anyone's literacy.

You did not, it was msedivingdoc that actually made the comment "I assume because you posted here you can read.". I responded to his post then you responded to mine in his defense. My point is I don't think the real message that either of you was trying to convey would get through the way you were talking to her.

 

[Web Monkey]

Do you really think it is beneficial to the diver to play along and blame everything on the DM? Do you think that the diver in question is above criticism?

Actually, I blame the dive op. First, they should know that one of their DMs doesn't have the personality for the job, and second they should have enough DMs and time available that new divers can do a good buoyancy check, learn the equipment and get some personal attention.

I've been on a *lot* of the cruise ship dives, on Carnival and others, all over the Carribean (my wife and I take a cruise during the winter, and she doesn't dive). All the things listed were are common on most of the dives.

At least 80% of the divers are either brand new OW divers with less than 10 dives total, or divers who only do a couple of dives a year on vacation. They almost all have rental equipment, and a lot have never been in the ocean.

Carnival knows this, the dive ops know this and the DMs certainly know this. The dives are promoted by the cruise line as fun, safe recreation, and the divers are given virtually zero information beforehand, except that "The dive site is selected by the operator."

Given the minimal requirements for an OW cert, and that most of the divers have never been in remotely similar conditions, have never seen the equipiment before (it's rental), have no idea of their weight requirements in salt water with the new equipment, and will be going deeper than they've ever been before, I beleive that it's the responsibility of the dive op to provide a sufficient number of well-qualified DMs to to provide whatever level of personal attention is required.

Although you may not know it, the cruise ship dives are phenominally expensive, and can easily run double what they should. There's enough money in there for all the staff that a boat full of newbies requires. If the dive op isn't getting a big enough cut to handle the divers, they should re-negotiate their contract or stop taking the cruise ship's passengers.

Although I'm a strong believer in personal responsibility, I don't beleive a new OW diver, certified in fresh water, doing shore dives, is capable of being self-sufficient on their first ocean boat dive.

Terry