Diving advice ? Carnival Cruise

[ABQdiver]

I think you did pretty well with the circumstances. Most folks right out of OW class in a non-ocean setting are intimidated and anxious. Both those facts will make getting down harder even if you have your weighting figured out.

This DM is an ***** and should be fired. I'm sure he was worried about you after not seeing you with the group, but that is NO excuse for his actions.


Definitely write your follow up letters, and next time book with a dive op NOT associated with the cruise ship. Smaller boat, better service and better dives!!

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

I think you coming down on her about "you should know this." is the wrong approach. For one she said she was only 4 lbs. off in order to sink. Its not like she had no clue what she needed, she asked someone who is supposed to be an expert for help and didn't get it. I don't think it's ever helpful to be condescending and take an elitist attitude with a new diver.

You're right...she was only 4 pounds off. Or off by 40% depending on how you look at it.

I am not trying to come off as condescending or elitist, but there has to be a measure of personal responsibility. I dive with my wife 99% of the time and we still go through descent/ascent procedures, hand signals and emergency planning before EVERY dive. I employ the same standards with ALL my dive partners even if I just met them getting on the boat.

 

[Hex]

You're right...she was only 4 pounds off. Or off by 40% depending on how you look at it.

I am not trying to come off as condescending or elitist, but there has to be a measure of personal responsibility. I dive with my wife 99% of the time and we still go through descent/ascent procedures, hand signals and emergency planning before EVERY dive. I employ the same standards with ALL my dive partners even if I just met them getting on the boat.

I think its good that you are methodical and more importanly safe in your procedures. However you have alot more experience than someone newly certified. Alot of people, myself included look to these boards in hope of gaining the knowledge of experienced divers. It just seems that sometimes people forget what it was like to be a beginner. I think in this situation she could benefit more from your knowledge than questioning hers.

4 is 40% of 14?

 

[deneenthom]

You're right...she was only 4 pounds off. Or off by 40% depending on how you look at it.

I am not trying to come off as condescending or elitist, but there has to be a measure of personal responsibility. I dive with my wife 99% of the time and we still go through descent/ascent procedures, hand signals and emergency planning before EVERY dive. I employ the same standards with ALL my dive partners even if I just met them getting on the boat.

Dear rustyrig - Not sure why you are so condescending in your emails - I'm on this board for advice not nasty criticism - for all I know - you were the jerk DM on the trip. This is the internet - and I am free to describe what happened on MY CARNIVAL CRUISE, and Discuss how I felt I was wronged by Don Fosters Dive Shop - by the DM with long brown hair, and two nipple rings - with a short temper.

For everyone else - thanks for your good intentions - not sure If I will ever dive again - experience was pretty terrifying - not sure I can get over that for some time. . . Thank you for reading the posts.

dee

Rustyrig - here are some answers to your questions:

#1 - Pre-Dive Breifing - I listened to it - I planned on doing a Bouyancy check, and descending with everyone else.
#2 - The topic of inabiltiy to equalize was NEVER addressed.
#3 - When back on the boat after dive - Buddy showed me his computer to show me how much air he had left - I looked, and saw a bunch of numbers that made no sense to me since I have never seen or used a computer before.
#4 - Buddy and I did discuss dive before entering water - he was new too - and we planned on "staying with the group" for the so called guided dive.

I didn't plan on bouyancy being off, didn't plan on being abandoned by DM or Dive Buddy - I really wanted to dive - thats why I spent $109.00 in advance - and got certified to begin with.

I have written Carnival Cruise Lines shore Excursions - with detailed complaint.

 

[rottielover]

1rustyrig - Just wanted to mention to you that they really don't teach how to properly weight in your OW class anymore, they teach you the weight check (float at eye level) but how to guesstimate your weight needs was not taught until my wife and I did the Peak Performance Bouyancy classes. When you do the PPB, they give you a "chart" that states "XX% of your body weight for fresh/salt" as your "starting" point, then you do weight checks to get it right from there. We did PADI, and durring our OW cert class/dives the instructor and DM's were the one's giving you your starting weight, and then helping you thru weight checks. After you do PPB, then your expected to know how to guess your lead needs and go from there.

So to my mind, giving the training that we got, it sounds to me like Dee did what she was taught to do, which was to ask the DM how much weight. (Dee didn't say anything other than OW cert, so I have to assume that she hasn't done PPB yet).

I agree with eveyone else here, you did a heck of job by staying calm, I think most of us newbie's would have freaked out and hit the surface! I'm another diver with limited funds for going on saltwater vacations, and I prefer to spend my money on ops that have a good reputation, you better belive that there are more of us out there reading posts like this one, forcing us to question the dive ops more and more.

One more thing, I realize I'm a noob, I've got OW, PPB, and a few dives under my belt, but I have enough common sense to know when someone is being an @ss, and I can tell you, that had I been in the group, I would not have hesitated one bit to speak up in that situation.

Sorry, I know this is going to step on a few toe's... Listen up all fellow noobie's, DM's and even Instructors ARE NOT gods of SCUBA, they are HUMAN beings. So, #1 remember that no human is perfect, we all have tempers and we can all get a bit out of line sometimes. So I don't really fault the DM much for having a temper, but what I do fault him for is being unprofessional, if he wanted to "talk to you" then he should have taken you aside, not yelled at you in front of the whole group, espeically to the point of tears, that serves NO PURPOSE AT ALL, NO ONE learns from being SCREAMED AT. #2 because no human has eyes in the back of thier head, YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN Safty, period. What dee did (IMO) was an excellent response to this situation, in OW your taught that if you can't find your buddy within 1 minute, you are to SAFELY acsend to the surface.

So, I just wanted to toss out some thoughts I had on this subject, it seems that I've bumped into more than my fair share of dive "professionals" that look down thier nose at you. They forgot that at one time (perhapse long ago, or perhapse not so long ago) they too were new. That being said, I'm also fortunate enough to have bumped into more than my fair share of true dive professionals, very nice, helpful, kind people, that really enjoy the sport, and really want to help you enjoy it as well.

So, once again, I'd like to toss out the thought, that you catch more fly's with honey... BE NICE! Especially to us newbie's, without new blood in the sport, all you old timers will eventually die out and then no one will scuba.... just food for thought.

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

I think its good that you are methodical and more importanly safe in your procedures. However you have alot more experience than someone newly certified.

4 is 40% of 14?

If you start at 10lbs and have to add 4 that is an increase of 40%

I have been diving the same way for 15 years. Like I said in my original post it was taught to me in OW class. I was also taught to dive within my own limits which goes back to what I said about pulling your first salt dive at 90+ feet on a wall.

You're right though, we shouldn't sit back and rationalize this story and wonder: What are the chances of the other 9 people in the dive party not correcting the, from her version of the encounter, obviously lacking predive breifing? Or not question her going over the dive with her buddy? I am sorry that I am skeptical, but I think there are many facets of the story that don't add up IMO.

But hey, lets just have an internet lynching of a DM who obviously can't give their side of the story rather than tell a new diver that they were in way over their head for their first dive after certification.

 

[gregor1234]

I agree with the majority of the of the responders and am shocked to hear of the treatment you were given.

If I were you I would cut and paste your original post into an email and send it to Don Foster's at dfd@candw.ky (as well as carnival cruise). I think the proprietor would be very unhappy to hear of this episode.

I've dove with several outfits on Grand Cayaman but never with Foster's. I always understood that they had a good reputation... but now I 'm not so sure. Cayman is full of first-time and once-a-year divers and the operators down there know it and should be able to accomodate it.

Some of us might benefit by brushing up on our physics..there is no formula for going from fresh to salt even with the same equipment. The formula that's usually given in agency manuals is a one-size-fits-all approximation. Might as well say "Always add 2 lbs" or "Always add 7 lbs" both are equally as valid (meaning not). The real answer depends on your specific body density. (The difference in bouyancy in the two mediums depends specifically on the density of the bouyant body).

I am even amazed that they gave you a #10 and told you it would be enough (even if you were overweighted with a #10 in fresh) because my two bone-skinny and extremely dense 170 lb teenaged boys both require #12 in the carribean with AL80's and *no* wetsuits.

As for "Why didn't you just thumb the dive?" Well it seems to me that you did just that... After you found you couldn't equalize and and realized that you weren't going to be able to connect with the group, you went on back to the boat. That was the right thing to do.

Your dive buddy should've stuck with you. In addition to saftey concerns, with a buddy by you side it would have been 2 of you against the DM and you could both yell at the DM and say "We missed the dive 'cause you took off without us. " (and I want my $ back) and not the other way 'round.

The only suggestion I might make for you is as follows: The fact the DM was apparently oblivious to your circumstances tells me that you didn't do a good enough job pre-dive of impressing on her your novice status and possible need for special help and attention. You might have been embarrassed do try it in future and you'll see that the DM will be impressed by your forthrightness and be more than willing keep an eye out and work through any problems you have.

Don't feel bad it wasn't your faulty and don't give up on the Caymans... there're plenty of wonderful operators down there.

 

[The Natural]

Story sounds just fine to me. Wieght was off, big whoopity doo! 4lbs, not uncommon or that much for ANY diver to be off when switching environments salt/fresh, 3mil/7mil/drysuit etc, especially a newb with probably some gear shes never used before. (guessing you rented your gear) Now if you had been diving for some time and in multiple environments then thats another story. Sounds like the DM was a dick, if your a PROFESSIONAL, you need to act like one, at least in the civilian world. I could understand her getting yelled at in front of others if she were in the USMC but she's on vacation. DM should have conducted himself in a professional manner, not berrating someone in front of a boat full of others.

Personally it sounds like you conducted yourself in a fine manner. Attempted to join the group, couldn't equalize and called the dive. I've done that same routine myself. Don't give up on diving for just one foul experience. Find a good shop near you and go for a refresher dive with an instructor or dive master. Explain your situation and I'm sure they renew interests in diving.

 

[1RUSTYRIG]

Some of us might benefit by brushing up on our physics..there is no formula for going from fresh to salt even with the same equipment.

I think you're incorrect. The formula for changing from fresh to salt with the same gear is ( body weight + N ) x 2.5% where N is the weight of the gear (including weight belt) for fresh water. The 2.5% represents salt water density vs. fresh water and can vary by .2 or .3% between oceans.

So our lets say our 175lb diver has 40lbs of gear when diving fresh water:

(175 + 40) x 2.5% = 5.375 additional pounds

Kevin

 

[Web Monkey]

I wasn't sure of the weight I should be at - had a 3 mm wetsuit on - and asked divemaster for help determining weight - I was told 10 lbs. was plenty, after I told her I weighed 175 lbs.

I was told to do a buoyancy check when i got in. . . . All 10 people got in water, I got in last. . . . I tried to do check, and would not sink - therefore, I was given 2 more lbs. of weight for my bcd pocket. I was told that it would be plenty.

If you couldn't sink with the weight you had, you were positively buoyant.

This means you needed more than another 2 pounds, you needed to compensate for your buoyancy, and the buoyancy from the soon-to-be-empty tank. An Aluminum 80 tank has a 6.5 pound buoyancy change from full to empty, so you would have needed 2 pounds + 6.5 pounds.

If you had used up the tank while underweighted, you would have had an uncontroled ascent, and possibly been injured or killed.

We went to the line - and everyone descended but me - - - I was still on top - - -the guy from the boat was screaming at me to exhale for 7 seconds, and let air out of BCD - duh - I did - and stilll would not sink - - - In the mean time - everyone was gone - It was me - alone - dive buddy left me, divemaster left me, I was alone. . . .

Welcome to the world of diving with "boat buddies" and an operator who knows that he'll never see you again.

Another 2 lbs. were added to bcd, and I finally started to sink - alone - dive buddy gone - divemaster - gone - all 10 people 90+ feet down, on "the wall" at grand cayman.

No buddy, no DM, and I assume no Surface Marker Buoy so the boat can find you again. Sorry, the dive is over at this point. Everything else, except coming back up was a mistake.

If you did this in an area with significant current, or you managed to stay under and had any kind of problem you couldn't fix yourself, we could easily be hearing about you in the news.

The non-obvious lesson, which I'm certain wasn't stressed in your OW class is that you can abort a dive at any time for any reason, no questions asked.

An even less obvious lesson is that huge problems grow out of little ones. When you start having problems, it's time to bag the dive. There's always the next dive, even if it won't be this year, in Grand Cayman.

If anybody (regardless of whether it's your buddy, the DM, or Boat Captain) gives you crap about it, you can tell them they can kiss your ***. you are the ultimate authority on whether you're going to dive or not. You can call a dive any time before or after you enter the water.

I'd tell to Carnival about the rest of it. Call them on the phone and ask to speak to the person in Operations who is in charge of the SCUBA Shore Excursions for Grand Cayman. The area is full of dive ops, and you deserve to not get yelled at. Don't bother with "Guest Relations". They're nice people, but can't do much.

Congratulations for surviving your first Carribean dive with a bad operator. It's a hard lesson, but one that will make you a much more careful and much safer diver.

Terry

I started to descend slowly, cleared my ears about 4 times, and could not clear them past 60 feet - - - Still alone - - - I tried to descend further because I was terrified of being without dive buddy or dive master - but couldn't - - - right ear wouldnt' clear - - - I started to get dizzy under water, and ascended a bit - - - still alone - and found the anchor line to the boat - I held the line - couldn't see anyone - (visibility was bad) - and stayed put - I thought dizziness and pain in ears woud subside, but didn't. I ascended to 25 feet on guage, had 2500 lbs. of pressure left in tank, did a 5 minute safety stop, and then went up. I made my way back to the boat, and waited for everyone else to "show up" - when Buddy came up - he asked me "where were you?" - I asked him the same question.

Then - the short tempered divemaster - came up to me, started yelling at me, and told me that this was a "guided dive" and that I should have stayed with him, and not be on my own- he yelled at me in front of 19 other divers - I tried to explain that I couldn't clear my ears, but then he accused me of trying to share a dive computer. . . that I didn't have - - - My buddy had the dive computer - my "buddy" who abandoned me. Needless to say - I started crying - not only of pain from ear, but from embarrassement from divemaster - - - I was bleeding blood from nose.

Went to ships doctor - I have baro trauma in right ear - going to doctor again today -

Lesson learned - - - Know dive buddy - not just trust who you are assigned to - Don't go on Carnival Ship tour again - and Don't go with Don Fosters Diving shop in Grand Cayman.

Please respond with what you think - I think I did the right thing when ears didn't clear. . . . please help -

terrified diver - Dee