Diving Education Today

[DCBC]

DCBC, let's back up a moment. We all realize that no training at all is needed to dive, correct? You can buy your gear over the net, you can get your air fills from a home compressor, or borrow tanks from a friend, and even have some stores fill the tanks for you.

There is no regulatory or legal requirement that one get certified. It is in no way a bar to diving at all. It is a bar to certain conveniences, but that is not the same thing.

Now we agree that training is valuable, and we agree that more training is better than less. But the idea that inadequate OW training is the reason people die (I'll accept that the death rate is some huge problem for the moment) misses the point that they don't need any training to be doing whatever it is that killed them in the first place.

The issue is about personal judgment. Regardless of if we say that the OW certification is for diving with a DM in a controlled environment, or if we say you haven't passed OW yet you can't dive without a DM as your buddy, or if we say you haven't passed OW yet stay out of the water, people in no way have to listen to instructors on that point.

They retain the freedom to go diving if they choose.

Agreed. What you have described is similar to jumping out of airplanes. We can do it without a parachute, with a parachute (not knowing how to use it), or we seek training in how to use it before we jump out. Although it's not needed, most sane individuals realize that it's better to learn first. They don't know what they don't know, but depend upon an instructor to guide them.

Ultimately we are talking about the individuals making intelligent and informed choices about their abilities and acting appropriately. OW students are told that they are only ready to dive within the level of their training in conditions similar or better to what they were trained in. They are given the recommendation to go on guided dives. They are told that it would be a benefit to practice their skills (our shop has open pool hours every week for divers to come in and do just that). They are told that they should strongly consider more class time and that they really only know the barest minimum.

We are now speaking of a person who realizes that training is required. As I have already mentioned, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. He places his trust in the Instructor who says this course will allow you to safely be "ready to dive within the level of their training in conditions similar or better to what they were trained in."

If however, there are hazards that are reasonably foreseeable that are within the scope of this training (unforeseen by the student, but which the Instructor is aware), Then I believe it is incumbent on the instructor to prepare the student (the "malfunction" for a parachuting student, for example).

Now, we can agree (and largely we do) that more training is better. But we can't stop an unregulated industry from responding to market forces without stopping the ability for anyone at all to dive regardless of level of training.

I believe if someone wants to dive without instruction, that is their right. If however they come to me to learn, I have a moral, ethical and perhaps a legal responsibility to provide them with a reasonable amount of training that will ensure their safety. That said, the diver may choose to dive outside the scope of his training, but it is my responsibility to clearly identify this.

So do you propose that we ask the government to license divers and to give professional exams for instructors?

No I don't think this is necessary. Government has started this process already (as seen in Quebec). The European Union is in the middle of a similar process. What I'm suggesting is that the diving industry exercise more responsibility before this takes place.

As you know I am a Canadian. The Ontario Underwater Council was formed in 1958 at a meeting of concerned dive clubs to discuss legislation concerning spear fishing and subsequent government intervention in the sport. That year the Council evaluated and standardize training programs which were reviewed by Government and approved. Since then these standards have been lowered by certification bodies outside of the Province.

Government involvement (or threat of involvement) is nothing new. It may just be a matter of time (I'm not too good with a crystal ball). It is obvious that some governments are becoming concerned for whatever reason.

If not, do you realize that even if we could someone convince all the agencies out there to raise their standards to, and even above, your desired level that it won't matter? In an unregulated industry someone will always be looking for ways to beat the competition - and the only questions new students know to ask is "how long and how much?" So without regulation, economy will drive corporate behavior. And someone will always compete on price and time.

As I have shown, government historically backed-off when interested persons in the sport have organized themselves and shown government that they can provide a viable solution.

Economy has always drove industry. Not all industries were regulated. The food industry for example. Greed drove people to sell sub-standard food and it worked well until sickness and death caused government involvement.

Regardless of the great statistics we've seen, why did the government of Quebec become involved? They say because of too many deaths that were attributed to inadequate training. Why is the EU doing what it's doing?

The closest comparison is the commercial diving sector. Greed promoted cutting corners until people started getting hurt. Regulation was introduced at the chagrin of the equipment sellers (which BTW, were the primary reason behind the reduction of the sport diver training standards in the first-place).

If not, do you realize the futility of your quest?

I do not see "my quest" as hopeless. Do I expect to personally change big business? No, I doubt that would happen. I do think however if people open their eyes to the big picture, it may change some attitudes towards teaching. Too many people imo believe anything they are told by companies that only want their money.

I don't see this as ethical to just turn a blind eye. There is a curse by having been around long enough to sit down and discuss these matters with some of the architects that designed the current certification systems. It would have been easier to just wake-up one day and accept that that's just the way things are and have always been this way, but that's not how it is.

 

[rstofer]

I believe what Thal is saying is that it may take 100 hours to initially train a research diver (although this is not where the training ends). I've found that half this time is sufficient to develop a solid foundation where the diver can safely build experience. This is of course each instructors call and this training time will vary with local conditions.

I wouldn't dream of speaking for Thal. However, he was involved with setting up NAUI's training programs. On several occasions we have danced around the idea that NAUI always intended for divers to take the entire sequence of OW I, OW II, AOW and Rescue. I don't recall that there were any specialties available. That could have been a local issue.

NAUI, back then, had some amount of Rescue at every level. But PADI has some in their OW course as well. I think they teach the tank tow and the fin push methods. I don't know if they teach getting a diver to the surface in OW. I imagine the basic OW student is totally incapable of dealing with a stressed diver at the surface.

This is why I advocate solid diver training in the first instance. We have an opportunity to train close to 100% of the people that come to us properly (some will choose it's not for them). Why not do this? Why advocate training them and then trying to convince them that the training they received is inadequate and to sign-up for a couple of more courses to get them where they should be? Other than the business perspective, I can't see why an Instructor would do that.

Because you just can't get 1/2 million new OW students to sign up for a long initial program. Nobody is going to sign up for a 3 month program with 20+ OW dives unless there is no alternative. And then you can expect the 1/2 million new divers to dwindle to < 100,000. Maybe far less.

But there is no reason not to tell students that OW is the absolute minimum and then discuss what there is to gain from taking additional classes. In a fun and positive way...

The agencies are pretty clear about the limitations of OW training and what a diver should expect to be capable of doing upon completion.

Re: my disillusionment with mentoring:

I don't know what prompted you to say this. It does work. Are you saying that a diver cannot learn and gain valuable experience from a more experienced diver? If you think about it, isn't that's what parenting is all about; caring and leading a child in the right direction? It's been working for millennium.

I don't think I would cite parenting as a good example of mentoring. I can show you entire cities where that model has failed: Wash DC, Oakland, Stockton, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc.

It depends on the quality of the mentor! Who better to mentor than an expert? Then again, are the children of child psychologists all perfect?

I think the mentoring idea places all the training responsibility on the shoulders of people who are unqualified to provide it. Sure, I know how to drive a car. Should I teach my grandson? It's questionable. Yes, I have more than 1 million accident free miles but I have this little quirk: I like it when the back wheels lose alignment with the front. I have always thought of the throttle as a binary device - all on or all off. Maybe he should learn from someone else. The days of letting it all hang out are probably best left behind.

Overseas, I was often the odd man out (my buddy had to work) and I would get stuck with the tourists passing through. As the new person on the boat, what a surprise. I can't think of even one pick-up dive that I would care to repeat. I wasn't even supposed to be a mentor, just show them around. That pattern continued when I got back to Calif. There's something to learn here: don't get involved with new divers.

Richard, you have made my point. If your initial training included everything up to and including your rescue course, you would have felt that "you could survive" from the get go. Is there not something wrong with certifying a diver who feels he can't survive with his level of knowledge?

But would I have taken the class at all if the instructor said it would take 3 months, cost a gazillion dollars, require 4 trips to another country plus something for accommodations and a couple of weeks for Red Cross First Aid and CPR?

So, you set the hook with OW and reel them in with additional classes. You keep an upbeat attitude, pointing out that there are other things to learn and why they WANT to learn them. Always selling that next course. Not for the money, necessarily, but to build enthusiasm for additional training. And for diving.

The Military T-10 use to have a malfunction rate of about 0.4% If I taught a student and omitted to teach what to do in-case of a malfunction would I be negligent? The statistics would support that I wouldn't be negligent from not teaching this on a basic program. Why then is it included in the training program?

How would I feel if a student had a partial malfunction and died as a result? It's not an acceptable risk. Do I care if the student wants to learn about the subject matter? No. In-fact every student is all ears; they don't want to die. They don't have to tell me this; they are sane and obviously want to know.

Then the industry should quit teaching scuba as though it is this cute and cuddly thing that everyone can do! It isn't and it never has been. It is a life threatening sport that can kill you in an instant! The thing is, if this was taught from the beginning, with appropriate emphasis on the "kill you in an instant", the sport would be a lot smaller than it is. All of the pictures show buff young guys and hot young women laying around on the boat, getting geared up in just a Lycra suit and swimming in warm clear water surrounded by fish. But no sharks! Don't discuss GW sharks around Monterey. We don't want to hear about them.

I knew it was dangerous and I wanted to know as much as I could. But I sometimes get that way. I didn't want to die in some foreign country.

Oh, and to prove that outside reading is helpful: did you know that there are 7 varieties of cobras on Pulau Tioman - the resort island where I did my training dives? Just something to think about when you cut across that field from the pier to the hotel room after a night dive.

The whole thing of teaching a diver X and if he later wants to know Y (something that can save his life or that of his buddy) he can come back on another course is crap. Of course he wants to know and he trusts the instructor to prepare him for such an eventuality.

That's why I teach basic diving students rescue skills. No one should be in a position of diving and watching their buddy drown on the surface. Telling them they should go out, do more diving and come back for another program to learn what they should already know doesn't cut it. The accident that kills them may occur on their next dive; they should have a fighting chance.

People can quote all the statistics they want. Divers continue to die needlessly. We can better prepare them, or we can close our eyes.

Sorry for the long response.

You aren't going to sell that all-encompassing program to enough new divers to support an industry. If you want to go back to training a few thousand people, worldwide, you will have a hard time finding an LDS. There won't be a market.

So, offer the program yourself and be content with what you can do. You won't change the industry. And the stats don't prove that additional training would have an effect except at the margins. Old age (over 40) is the problem in 90% of the cases (or so little is known about the causation that old age is just the assigned cause).

We most certainly won't solve the problem here on SB.

Richard

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

So, has anything in the 40 pages of this thread shed any more light on your original questions/concerns?

Yes. It seems that the majority of people reflect upon the training they received as an adequate start, regardless of how good or poor that training may have been. I find this interesting.

Why?

Let's give up on this mentor thing. First of all, a wide disparity in diving skill doesn't necessarily help the new diver. It just gets them in over their heads a lot deeper. The other side of it: why would anybody want to dive with a new diver when they already have an outstanding dive buddy capable of making more advanced dives. This mentoring thing just doesn't work.

I definitely can't agree with this. I have a couple of dive mentors and their guidance has been invaluable. But, I would like to stress that while I dive with a lot of divers that are far more advanced than I am, that doesn't make them all "mentors". The mentors know that they are mentoring and are active in making sure that I've learned what they believe is important and take the time and patience to correct and test me. While the other advanced divers I'm with simply teach through example, whether they mean to or not.

 

[rstofer]

Why?


I definitely can't agree with this. I have a couple of dive mentors and their guidance has been invaluable. But, I would like to stress that while I dive with a lot of divers that are far more advanced than I am, that doesn't make them all "mentors". The mentors know that they are mentoring and are active in making sure that I've learned what they believe is important and take the time and patience to correct and test me. While the other advanced divers I'm with simply teach through example, whether they mean to or not.

I'm not sure I know what a 'mentor' is. From your description (teaching and testing) they sound a lot like instructors.

And how do you know that those advanced divers are teaching you the right stuff? Just because they have an advanced certificate? Do you have any way to evaluate what they are teaching? Or are you taking it on faith that, because they haven't died, you won't either?

Yes, I really am a cynic and it is not in my nature to trust anyone. No, not even instructors. I accept nothing on faith and try to rationalize everything. But I'm still here so I must have done something right.

At least with scuba instructors, there are published materials that have been peer reviewed over generations. I can buy (and I have) the published materials of several agencies. I had practically memorized the BSAC manual before I ever signed up for the NAUI program. Yes, I tend to be a little OC.

Maybe after a new diver finishes some length training sequence they are in a position to use the services of a 'mentor'. Before that it really is just 'Follow me!' diving and for a new OW diver, this might not be a good thing.

Instructor supervised dives seem like a better approach. More classes...

Richard

 

[DCBC]

NAUI, back then, had some amount of Rescue at every level. But PADI has some in their OW course as well. I think they teach the tank tow and the fin push methods. I don't know if they teach getting a diver to the surface in OW. I imagine the basic OW student is totally incapable of dealing with a stressed diver at the surface.

NAUI always had a rescue element. Currently I believe PADI OW only requires tows and assists on the surface; no rescues are required (at least those are the RSTC requirements).

But would I have taken the class at all if the instructor said it would take 3 months, cost a gazillion dollars, require 4 trips to another country plus something for accommodations and a couple of weeks for Red Cross First Aid and CPR?

How about a membership in a scuba club; $25 a year, actual cost of certification and text. Unlimited air free, Instruction free. Diving in the local area 12 months a year (usually twice a week, every week). You should be able to complete your OW, Advanced and Rescue without too much trouble for less than $300 AND you will be trained properly. A gazillion dollars???

Then the industry should quit teaching scuba as though it is this cute and cuddly thing that everyone can do! It isn't and it never has been. It is a life threatening sport that can kill you in an instant! The thing is, if this was taught from the beginning, with appropriate emphasis on the "kill you in an instant", the sport would be a lot smaller than it is.

No one can say that there isn't danger. To make light of it doesn't do anyone any favors only self-serve the industry. Yes, diving can be done safely. But to show the statistics (which can be manipulated to say whatever you want to) and say it's ok for a non-swimmer to go out diving in the North Atlantic will only get him killed. But there is more to being a diver imo than to being led around by the hand by an DM or Instructor in warm vacation water.

Old age (over 40) is the problem in 90% of the cases (or so little is known about the causation that old age is just the assigned cause).

I guess that's true. I'll be 57 in a few weeks and have decided to retire from saturation diving. I've been a Supervisor and Diving Superintendent in later years, which kept me out of the water. For the last few years I've acted as a Project Consultant for Big Oil, which has required some sats for inspection purposes. Although I keep passing the medical, my energy isn't what it use to be. It's a young person's game and it's time to do something else. Maybe something diving related where it's warm...

 

[DCBC]

Originally Posted by DCBC
"Yes. It seems that the majority of people reflect upon the training they received as an adequate start, regardless of how good or poor that training may have been. I find this interesting."

Why?

If you are diving with someone who you are not trained to save, nor is he trained to save you, how can you believe you are competent to go diving unsupervised?

Like I have said previously, if you're going to jump out of a plane with a parachute (there's a chance of failure), what do you need to know before your first jump? How to deal with a partial malfunction? Total malfunction? How to use your reserve chute? Or all of the above? How about I tell you that this course includes the partial and we'll leave the total malfunction for the next course? The reserve will be discussed in the course following that one. Now go and get the required number of jumps and then I'll sign you up on the next course... Would you be comfortable with that? I wouldn't.

Even if the jumper is completely trained, it as only at one level. That does not mean the jumper is ready for free-fall. He needs more experience first, but he should have all the skill-sets and training that will allow him to have a solid foundation in-which to build his/her experience.

Same rationale. The diver is either prepared to dive as a functional member of a buddy team and dive unsupervised, or s/he is not. There are courses that are designed for the resort diver and that's fine (I can dress you for free-fall, snap you in and you will survive), but if you want to do it yourself, there are no short-cuts.

 

[rstofer]

How about a membership in a scuba club; $25 a year, actual cost of certification and text. Unlimited air free, Instruction free. Diving in the local area 12 months a year (usually twice a week, every week). You should be able to complete your OW, Advanced and Rescue without too much trouble for less than $300 AND you will be trained properly. A gazillion dollars???

Sounds great!

A lot of people aren't joiners. There have always been discussions about the mass migration to California following WW II. We moved here in the very early '50s leaving behind any family or friends my parents might have had in New York. Through all of my younger years my parents never interacted with our neighbors. The kids played, of course, but the adults stayed pretty much isolated.

Today I don't know my neighbors other than to wave hello. I don't want to know them. Hello is adequate. I dive with family and have no interest in diving with anyone else.

Now, Singapore Club Aquanaut was the one exception. Here, for a measly $25 we could get a boat ride from Jahor Bahru (the town in Malaysia bordering Singapore) to one of the outlying islands. No charge for accommodations - pick a spot on the beach, pitch a tent. Air was included, the American School provided the food and the embassies provided the wine. To the $25 you had to add the cost of gas and parking.

Well, the rule was, if you took another diver they paid you $25 for transportation. That covered the overhead costs. Carry another diver and you dive for FREE. Free diving, free accommodations, free food & drink - what's not to like?

There are dive clubs around. I don't know anything about them because I'm not much of a joiner. Clubs seem to be a way of life in England (eg BSAC) and perhaps other countries. I'm not sure how relevant they are in the US.

Richard

 

[BDSC]

Maybe something diving related where it's warm...

We still have two rooms available going to Little Cayman for a great deal and we get a free space that is used to discount everyone's price. You are more than welcome and no one will come close to getting you killed like what happened to you in Bonaire!

 

[DCBC]

We still have two rooms available going to Little Cayman for a great deal and we get a free space that is used to discount everyone's price. You are more than welcome and no one will come close to getting you killed like what happened to you in Bonaire!

Thanks for the invite BDSC! I was thinking of something more permanent that would pay me, instead of the other way around (not to say that investment isn't a possibility).

 

[TSandM]

There's something to learn here: don't get involved with new divers.

I find this incredibly sad.