Diving Education Today

[BDSC]

I was thinking of something more permanent that would pay me, instead of the other way around

Man that would be sweet! Hope you find it!

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

If you are diving with someone who you are not trained to save, nor is he trained to save you, how can you believe you are competent to go diving unsupervised?

Like I have said previously, if you're going to jump out of a plane with a parachute (there's a chance of failure), what do you need to know before your first jump? How to deal with a partial malfunction? Total malfunction? How to use your reserve chute? Or all of the above? How about I tell you that this course includes the partial and we'll leave the total malfunction for the next course? The reserve will be discussed in the course following that one. Now go and get the required number of jumps and then I'll sign you up on the next course... Would you be comfortable with that? I wouldn't.

Even if the jumper is completely trained, it as only at one level. That does not mean the jumper is ready for free-fall. He needs more experience first, but he should have all the skill-sets and training that will allow him to have a solid foundation in-which to build his/her experience.

Same rationale. The diver is either prepared to dive as a functional member of a buddy team and dive unsupervised, or s/he is not. There are courses that are designed for the resort diver and that's fine (I can dress you for free-fall, snap you in and you will survive), but if you want to do it yourself, there are no short-cuts.

What situations are you referring to that are likely to be encountered by a basic OW diver staying within the recommended limits, that are not taught in OW?

Like what you're taught in basic jump school, much of what you're taught in basic OW is about self-rescue, not about rescuing others. It wasn't until I went to Jumpmaster school that I learned how to deal with other's issues. Things such as towed jumpers.

 

[boulderjohn]

Thanks.

Was the study limited to buddy breathing?

My understanding, both from study and more than a quarter century as an athletic coach (including two coaching licenses that required study of this sort of thing) is that different skills require different levels of practice to achieve mastery.

For example, it took me way, way, way more than than tries for me to get the hang of back finning, and I still have a way to go to get that where I want it. In contrast, I had no trouble clearing a mask from the very first time I tried it.

Here's a quote from:
Executive Action
Should The BSAC Teach CESA?
Steve Warren
Link


Writing in "Stress and Performance in Diving" recognized dive safety experts Bacchrach and Glen Egstrom underscore the problems: "in the case of buddy breathing, a study conducted by the UCLA Diving Safety Research Project determined that 17-21 successful trials of the skill resulted in performance without errors in a group of basic students. It was also noted that that following three months of diving without reinforcing the skill, there were were degraded performances involving errors in procedures. It seems obvious then that not only should the skills be well learned, but they should be periodically reinforced, especially in circumstances where the buddies are diving together for the first time".

 

[boulderjohn]

There was a thread on Mentoring a while ago. I had trouble following the logic of much of it. here is what many people seemed to be saying to me.

1. The waters are full of cr@ppy divers. Everywhere you look you see them. You have a hard time finding anyone who is any good at all. They are cr@ppy because they are getting horrible instruction.

2. Mentors would be much better. A Mentor is any existing diver who has been diving for a while. All Mentors have superior skills to instructors. All existing divers, cr@ppy as they are (see #1) are better divers than the instructors who created them.

3. You can find a Mentor by simply asking an existing diver to help you out. Choose from any of the ones mentioned in item #1 above.

4. Occasionally a skilled Mentor decides to become an instructor. In the instructor training, they go through a process that clears their minds and bodies of all the knowledge and skill they had when they were Mentors. They then go about turning out cr@ppy divers.

Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[DCBC]

What situations are you referring to that are likely to be encountered by a basic OW diver staying within the recommended limits, that are not taught in OW?

You are taught to dive with a Buddy, so that each can assist the other, as required. If you are only interested in self-rescue, why not dive alone? ... Because you are there to help your buddy and he is there for you. The Buddy concept implies that you have the capability to help one another. That's why you are trained to share air & some instructors teach buddy breathing; that's not self-rescue. If that were the case you would carry a redundant source of gas.

Not all OW divers are taught basic in-water rescue skills as a requirement (as one example). RSTC may include this as optional but not necessary. Of course what is being discussed, is how things have changed over the years and how minimum requirements have been reduced. Some certification bodies allow more flexibility to their Instructors, to elect to include, examine and require additional training in addition to the minimum standards for certification.

 

[rstofer]

I find this incredibly sad.

It may just be my POV. As I said, I have never had an enjoyable dive with a pick-up diver and at least one dive was downright frightening. The diver's wife was supposed to hang on the buoy (she didn't want to do the 90' dive, ear problems) and when we surfaced she was gone! Never do a deep dive with a pick-up 3d diver! Not ever!

One of the others had a reverse block at about 40'. Surfacing was problematic but we couldn't stay down forever. Turns out she had a cold and didn't want to mention it. Cool... She really knew how to make my day! What could I possibly do to mitigate the problem? What training was I missing?

Then there was the German tourist who thought he was exempt from dive tables. I was ready to surface and he wanted to keep diving. Our club didn't allow deviations from a square profile dive and required 500 psi on return. Tourists weren't planning to come back, they didn't care!

Or the time in Monterey where we were at 60' swimming around a small island (really too small to be an island, maybe a big rock). My buddy ran out of air 10 minutes into the dive. So we had to surface and crawl through the kelp to get back to the boat. I could have taken a different route. I could have paid more attention to his SAC rate.

I have spent years thinking about these dives. In every case, I could have been a better buddy. Or maybe I could have had better awareness. Nobody got hurt but I have always been troubled by them. I don't want to be troubled. I want to take look at the fish.

I was blessed with the best buddy on the planet. We were trained together and we dove together for over 100 dives. It's tough to compare a pick-up buddy with someone like that.

Now that I am old and broken down, I dive with family. We keep the dives shallow (for my grandson, so I say) and simple. I have no intentions of getting involved with other divers.

There is also the fact that I am self-centered and self-absorbed. Maybe that's the problem. I'm pretty old so I doubt I will outgrow it.

Richard

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

You are taught to dive with a Buddy, so that each can assist the other, as required. If you are only interested in self-rescue, why not dive alone? ... Because you are there to help your buddy and he is there for you. The Buddy concept implies that you have the capability to help one another. That's why you are trained to share air & some instructors teach buddy breathing; that's not self-rescue. If that were the case you would carry a redundant source of gas.

Not all OW divers are taught basic in-water rescue skills as a requirement (as one example). RSTC may include this as optional but not necessary. Of course what is being discussed, is how things have changed over the years and how minimum requirements have been reduced. Some certification bodies allow more flexibility to their Instructors, to elect to include, examine and require additional training in addition to the minimum standards for certification.

I understand what your point of starting the thread was. What I don't quite get yet is what exactly is lacking in the training for a basic OW diver. Much of what I've read in this thread seems to deal more with people not taking the training to heart, not that the curriculum itself is lacking.

 

[boulderjohn]

I understand what your point of starting the thread was. What I don't quite get yet is what exactly is lacking in the training for a basic OW diver. Much of what I've read in this thread seems to deal more with people not taking the training to heart, not that the curriculum itself is lacking.

OK, in one or two of the many variations of this thread over the years, Thal gave this example of something that is missing: an OW diver should be able to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten.

Please correct me if I have misremembered.

 

[DCBC]

I understand what your point of starting the thread was. What I don't quite get yet is what exactly is lacking in the training for a basic OW diver. Much of what I've read in this thread seems to deal more with people not taking the training to heart, not that the curriculum itself is lacking.

My post #297 provides some information. It's getting quite long to read the whole thread, but if you're able to sift through the cynicism, you may find it interesting.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

Now imagine that the standard training class was something like the Scripps Model Course that Thal uses. So I tell them, "Well, I don't know that it's hard but it is certainly demanding. It will take about 100 hours spread over 12 to 13 weeks and the cost is X." (Don't know the cost but it's got to be a lot more I would think than the std cost of a typical OW course)

I'm not advocating 100 hours/12 diver for everyone, a good base can be had in about 50 hours with 6 dives, half the time.

...

I believe what Thal is saying is that it may take 100 hours to initially train a research diver (although this is not where the training ends). I've found that half this time is sufficient to develop a solid foundation where the diver can safely build experience. This is of course each instructors call and this training time will vary with local conditions.

This is why I advocate solid diver training in the first instance. We have an opportunity to train close to 100% of the people that come to us properly (some will choose it's not for them). Why not do this? Why advocate training them and then trying to convince them that the training they received is inadequate and to sign-up for a couple of more courses to get them where they should be? Other than the business perspective, I can't see why an Instructor would do that.

Exactly.

Let's give up on this mentor thing. First of all, a wide disparity in diving skill doesn't necessarily help the new diver. It just gets them in over their heads a lot deeper. The other side of it: why would anybody want to dive with a new diver when they already have an outstanding dive buddy capable of making more advanced dives. This mentoring thing just doesn't work.

The mentoring thing does work. It helps the new diver, it gives the experienced diver a change to get back to basics and reinforce basic skills. And it's fun to watch someone "get it." Often that's a lot more fun than seeing the same thing that you've seen on thousands of dives before. Going diving with a new diver is often like going out with a new set of eyes.

Furthermore, some people are just shy. They don't like meeting new people and sharing death defying moments together. They might be willing to dive in a controlled (instructed) group where one talented instructor is teaching them the ropes.

Consider for a moment that a new diver might just consider scuba diving a high risk sport. Why in the world would they trust their life to a 'mentor' they just met? Just because the guy says he has a card? Nonsense. What they want is more time with an instructor.

For most mentoring is not the same thing as going diving with an insta-buddy. For some, sometimes, it is. But usually the relationship is more than a one dive stand.

Thal is right, you know! It takes about 100 hours and a bunch of dives to get this thing under control. OW provides the minimum (others argue less than minimum) so it's up to the instructors to SELL additional training. Before the divers walk away.

All I ask is that we redefine the 25 hour/4 dive programs as Introduction to Diving that does not permit independent diving, we make the standard OW course 50 hours with 6 dives (that's a "certified" diver) and then tack on stuff as you want.

Consider OW as 25 of the 100 hours (optimistic). It's up to you guys (the instructors) to fill in the rest.

Not for a "certified" diver.

I find this incredibly sad.

Yes.

It may just be my POV. As I said, I have never had an enjoyable dive with a pick-up diver and at least one dive was downright frightening. The diver's wife was supposed to hang on the buoy (she didn't want to do the 90' dive, ear problems) and when we surfaced she was gone! Never do a deep dive with a pick-up 3d diver! Not ever!

One of the others had a reverse block at about 40'. Surfacing was problematic but we couldn't stay down forever. Turns out she had a cold and didn't want to mention it. Cool... She really knew how to make my day! What could I possibly do to mitigate the problem? What training was I missing?

Then there was the German tourist who thought he was exempt from dive tables. I was ready to surface and he wanted to keep diving. Our club didn't allow deviations from a square profile dive and required 500 psi on return. Tourists weren't planning to come back, they didn't care!

Or the time in Monterey where we were at 60' swimming around a small island (really too small to be an island, maybe a big rock). My buddy ran out of air 10 minutes into the dive. So we had to surface and crawl through the kelp to get back to the boat. I could have taken a different route. I could have paid more attention to his SAC rate.

I have spent years thinking about these dives. In every case, I could have been a better buddy. Or maybe I could have had better awareness. Nobody got hurt but I have always been troubled by them. I don't want to be troubled. I want to take look at the fish.

I was blessed with the best buddy on the planet. We were trained together and we dove together for over 100 dives. It's tough to compare a pick-up buddy with someone like that.

Now that I am old and broken down, I dive with family. We keep the dives shallow (for my grandson, so I say) and simple. I have no intentions of getting involved with other divers.

There is also the fact that I am self-centered and self-absorbed. Maybe that's the problem. I'm pretty old so I doubt I will outgrow it.

Maybe I'm taking too much on myself, but those do not sound like situations that would bother me much. But one again, you're confusing mentoring with insta-buddies ... not the same thing, though an experienced mentor or instructor can often help even an insta-buddy.

OK, in one or two of the many variations of this thread over the years, Thal gave this example of something that is missing: an OW diver should be able to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten.

Please correct me if I have misremembered.

Frankly I think that anyone going out on a small boat with any role other than sitting there with a life jacket on should be able to tie a bowline left or right handed, coming and going. Extending that to divers in cold water ... you'd best be able to do it with mitts (or these days for some, dry gloves) on.