Diving rules? (Japan)

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Titan:
I think Steve's basic point is a valid one. In practice, at least as far as Izu is concerned Matt is correct, however I don't think anyone has appointed the Fishermen's collectives guardians of the sea. Its rather more a case of because they are virtually able to enforce it, they've assumed ownership. And since this is Japan and its too much hassel no one is prepared to challenge that. I suspect that if we actually researched the legal position and bylaws in each municipality we would discover that at best the Fishermen's collectives are analogous to sqatters.

I'm inclined to agree with you here, Titan. If I understood Steve's question, I think he is questioning what the letter of the law is, not the reality that seems to exist (apparent control of Izu by fishermen).

Is this condition supported by law, I think that is a valid question...
 
Yes, I was asking about the LAW. If more people started divng and not playing by some made up rules things might change. I can't do it unless I win the lotery but if I could open up a dive shop I would let people use there own tanks, fill tanks on site and pay the fishermen nothing I would also not charge a arm and a leg for a 5 min boat ride. I would make most of my my through gear sells and the sheer number of divers that would come my way once they learned what a better deal I have. I could be way off base hear as I don't know that much about running a dive shop. I would sure be hard to do atleast at first in Japan and I know Matt iS right about how the law changes from one town to another. I tried to shore dive in Jogashima and was told that that island has a rule that nobody can dive anywhere on the island unless they go through a shop and if I tried they would call the police. In Kumomi I had to go the the fishermens shack and pay 1000 yen first before I could dive. I also thougt if the fisherman Yakuza thought about it why don't they just charge like 10,000 yen a year for a dive pass kind of like a hunting or fishing licsen back in the states and would probaly make more that way and people would be happy. I don't want to piss anyone off but I am tired of getting yelled at or rocks dropped on me, people try to take or cut the line to a SMB
 
I don't know which it is in this "chicken or the egg" kind scenario, but this current reality does seem to play into the way the diving business has unfolded on the mainland. Meaning, when I go to sites, 70 to 90% of Japanese people I meet are being guided by a DM. Some days at some sites, it seems to actually be 100%. It appears for better or worse, the business has evolved in such way to propagate the current situation of control.
 
For reference, there are no fees or restrictions of any sort on Okinawa. Park your car, don your gear, and walk in the water. You may have to watch out for fishing lines in the water in some places, but there are no prohibitions that I have ever heard about.
 
okinawascuba:
For reference, there are no fees or restrictions of any sort on Okinawa. Park your car, don your gear, and walk in the water. You may have to watch out for fishing lines in the water in some places, but there are no prohibitions that I have ever heard about.

Do you know a good headhunter in Okinawa? :eyebrow:

Thomas
 
Japan is a country of control built into the entire social structure. It's been like this for all of their history. One of the problems is that the Japanese themselves would seldom dare to question authority even if they know that the person in authority is legally wrong. A lot of things are based not on the law, but on an assumption of it. The person with the power feels that they have the right to dictate to the rest. This is also true for fishermen.
Wether you can do something about it can become very delicate.
An example: I have been employed on one year temporary contracts for the last 5 years by the local town council. As my contract is temporary they don't have to pay me the same way that they would if I had the same contract as the rest of the people who work for the council - and I also don't get other perks that everyone else does. They say it's because in Japan it's against the law to employ a foreigner as a civil servant, so they are very sorry but there is nothing they can do. In fact - as I found out from a Japanese lawyer last year - this is completely incorrect and in fact breaks a couple of laws including one to do with racial equality in Japan. I could therefore take them to court and win in theory. In practice they could just find another reason to terminate the contract if I did and as I live in a very close country community where my wife comes from, the amount of bad feeling that it would create would effectively mean that we had to move somewhere else.
I suspect with some fisherman the same would apply. Even if they are legally in the wrong any Japanese vs Gaijin battle would create huge resentment. I would expect that they could do all kinds of outrageous stuff (someone already mentioned cars etc) - and I think that there is a very good chance that the authorities such as the police would simply look the other way.
If you want to see an example of how such a battle can develop then check this site about the Otaru onsen case in Hokkaido:
http://www.debito.org/otarulawsuit.html

Even though I don't like it I have to agree with Matt. Japan is not the land of the free - even if it supposed to be and they are signatury to many international conventions. I believe that it will change - but over a very long time. The reason that it will change is because of the increased exposure to the outside world: the reason it will take a long time being the deeply ingrained attitudes and prejudices that for centuries have suppressed the individual. Coming from a Western country where the individual is held in much higher regard it can be very difficult to stomach the Japanese system - but IMO that's what you have to do - or leave.
 
Diving is regulated on many places in many countries. Even some governments get highly involved. Most recently Canada I guess. Boat diving is a 'military activity' in Taiwan. Many places in the Mediteranean are completely closed for diving...

The 340 yen we often pay to the fishermen... does that allow us to pick some abalones, scallops and lobsters? :wink:

My wife is Japanese and we lived in Sweden before. Actually, I think I am better treated here than she was over there. Now... If they only would let me vote in local elections here. Anyway, I like it here. Otherwise I would go somewhere else.

Thomas
 
Diving is allowed in any places legalley except fixed fishing net and so on but actually many fishermen associations interrupt diving. On the other hand fishing is generally allowed traditionally.
The reason why is divers get marine foods illegally and fishermen have strong sense of entitlement on their territorys. Miyako diving association won a case against fishermen's one and the decision of the coat has been fixed. Diving had been very restricted in many places before but it becomes more free recently because illegal activities by divers are decreasing and fishermen can get boat fees.
Okinawa is one of special places.
I don't know JPY340 is fishing fee or not. It is called as diving control or arrangement ticket on Osezaki. Thomas's understanding is very interesting for me. could be good understanding on some places(L)

*** When in Rome, do as the Romans do. ***
 
Technically/legally, you have as much right to be in the water as the local commercial fishermen. Of course, the fishermen would have you believe otherwise...no... I actually think that fishermen generally believe they have some sort of god given rights over the seas. If you haven't already noticed, fishermen in Japan tend to be the most poorly educated and crass group of people in the country (the world?). Trying to reason with these guys is generally futile.

But, in many areas (especially in areas that rely heavily on fishing to support the local economy) the yakuza-like behavior of local fishermen go unchecked, and sometimes even supported. Technically, it's not legal, it's not right, and it's defintely not pretty...but it's reality. You're dealing with idiots that believe that divers are a potential threat to their livelihood.


KimLeece,

You can step down from your moral high horse. Japan has never claimed to be the "land of the free"...there are many things wrong with it, but it does continue to change for the better. Social change takes time.

To be honest, you're not helping anyone by continuing to allow the town council to take advantage of you. Unless you've been imprisoned and forced to work without benefits, you're largely to blame. You're letting them take advantage of you. Have you confronted them about your situation? If they're not willing to give you the compensation that you're legally entitled to, why stay? I'm in no way saying that you should leave Japan; quite the contrary. But have you attempted to find employment elsewhere? Thinking about getting into a scuffle with local fishermen to avoid paying SCUBA diving entrance fees is probably dumb. But, asking for fair/legal compensation (your livelihood) seems like something that's worth taking a stand on. There are a lot of things that may not make sense that you have to buckup and accept (I feel the exact same way living in the U.S.), but I don't think illegal exploitation is one of them.

Japan is a country of control built into the entire social structure. It's been like this for all of their history. One of the problems is that the Japanese themselves would seldom dare to question authority even if they know that the person in authority is legally wrong. A lot of things are based not on the law, but on an assumption of it.

So? It's just the nature of having a conservative society. Try think of it as a nation full of right wing Republicans...I know, I know, it scares me sometimes too.

Please stop with the, centuries of ingrained prejudice BS. It wasn't all that long ago that Americans were jailing communists, upheld segregation, and job opportunities for Japanese immigrants were pretty much limited to working out in the fields. I don't see why it's going to be anymore difficult for Japan to embrace liberal thinking than it had been for the Americans. Japanese are conservative, but not any more so than the Republicans are here, and much less so than Americans had been before the 60's...don't you think?

I realize that things are difficult and often unfair, but you chose to live in Japan. And, things aren't going to change just because it's inconvenient for you. You're going to have to work harder than everyone else, and YOU are going to have to fight (not physically) if you want things to change.

Kim,
I hope I did not rub off antagonisticly; it's not my intent. I am hoping to motivate you. I know it's very difficult to live in another country with a very different culture (I know, because I'm doing it). I often have similar talks many of my Japanese friends that become disillusioned living/working in the U.S.
 
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