DMs behaving badly

[Aqua Buoy]

Very true Aqua Bouy. Although, like myself, most people get into this sport because of their love for marine life. Likewise, I did notice a marked lack of urchins in the Carribean when I first dove it as compared to southern California.
Similarly a DM's attitude probably reflects his own upbringing.
A few years ago, I moved to a small river town and befriended a few local boys. These guys grew up in this area as hunters and fishermen. As such, I would've expected them to have a certain level of respect for their surroundings. I was wrong. When they go out in the woods, it's always to kill something. If it moves, they kill it, whether they plan on eating it or not, no matter what it is. I'm different. I don't shoot it unless it's in season. I don't kill it if it's pregnant. And I don't kill it if I have no plans to eat it. As a matter of fact, I haven't hunted since I bought my property, just because I have a ready supply of meat at the grocery. I like my critters crawling, walking, or flying, not on my wall or in my freezer. One of those guys recently approached me about hunting on my land, because I made the mistake of telling him I have more turkey and deer than I could shake a stick at. I asked him why he don't hunt on his farm. He said it's because he doesn't have any game on his land. I said, "And you wonder why"?
In Cozumel, I noticed a lot of nice coral, but not many fish. The local DMs are just like the good 'ol boys around my little town. The see it, they kill it. They grew up that way. They do the DM thing, not for a love of their environment, they just do it for the money.
Makes it REAL hard for me to shell out a tip after a dive.
I agree with you though, an understanding of the environment should be taught along with bubble blowing 101.

I completely agree with you on that, I know some of the local DMs here on the island (and there aren't many) have been caught riding sea turtles or doing similar things, though I must say it isn't prevalent, it is because of a completely different worldview and a percieved need to make money. And while I don't agree with the method, these guys do need money, but they're going about it the wrong way. The trouble is the some of the shops used to allow it (or at least not doing anything significant about it), I know most places would have DMs seriously reprimanded (firing being a bit harder as they need them!) if they caught turtles being ridden, or something similar.


As for Vickie's comments, I agree, no diver is perfect and I also agree that many new divers (which we all were at some point) can do a lot of damage, no arguing there - I've done my share of mistakes. Though the debate I am going on about is about DMs that are known/observed to do things on purpose and those actions being questionable. Having said that, I'm about to address the bit on marine biologists.


About the marine biologists, there are those that believe they can do whatever they want and rules don't apply to them, and I can see where they're coming from. While I am not familiar with Dion's case, it is sometimes hard to distinguish between good and bad practice if one doesn't really know what they're doing (obviously if they're doing a survey standing on the coral that's different, as per my example earlier). Now if say we had professionals underwater, first I find it bad practice to have them doing their thing (even marine biologists on holidays retain they inquisitveness!) in front of others as they've been taught "don't touch anything, ever" but here come a bunch of "pros" and start playing around.

It could well be they did/mean no harm, but I think it's bad practice to do in from of others, at the very very least they should have talked to the shop/DM and told them what they'd be up to so others could be briefed and said - well here are some marine biologists, they're going to be doing some things they know about and they know what they're doing (hopefully!) and please do not do what they do. Maybe afterwards they might even exchange some "findings" with the customers. But as I said before, many biological investigations are by their very nature destructive (hence the term "destructive sampling"). Again, I can't comment on the case in point as I wasn't present.

Now, if we consider DMs picking up sharks versus the actions of a travel diver (which I believe is the point Fishoutawate was trying to make) is that if we really really cared that much about the environment we wouldn't either a) travel to dive (or travel at all) or b) not dive at all. I think it is fair to accept that air travel is becoming one of the biggest contributors of global warming (I know the US gov't is a tad in denial about the whole thing, but that's a debate for elsewhere), so travelling to Aruba, Cozumel, Grenada, Yap or Zanzibar divers wrack up scary amounts of carbon miles to start with. But not because we wrack up pollution on the way to the dive site does it mean it's ok to step on a coral or two or stand by and watch local DMs messing around unnecessarily with wildlife. (though it would be nice to see some alternate ways to travel!) Same thing about point B, the environmentally ideal thing to do would be not to dive, but we still do but don't (at least I hope not) use it an excuse to trash the place or take a "souvenir" home with us.

I'm a conservationist and not a preservationist, I think all things can be approached with common sense, but it doesn't mean it always is.

 

[Dion]

I would just like to point out that these particular marine biologists were not doing anything "scientific", they weren't doing research or anything like that. I know, because I asked them. (Only one of them even worked with salt water, the other one did some kind of fresh water purification research.) My guess is that they feel they are justified in attempting to flush out fish and harassing them because they do similar things in their research. I personally don't feel its justified ever, but that's just me. And it was totally unacceptable for them to do that on a group dive where they were ruining the visibility for everyone.

Dion

 

[Nic160]

On the flip side, lets ask the DM/Instructors here how often they see stupid divers on the reef. Holding on to coral in order to get a closer "look" at something. How about the morons who dive 4 times a year and are completely reliant on us to get them down and back up with no harm. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've seen this out there. And ya know what, it's usually the divers that do most of the complaining topside that suck so bad at 60+feet. I seen so much crap down there I really need to consider writing a book.

So, before you go casting to many stones at DM's I'd say take a good look at yourself, evaluate what your skills are like. We do things sometimes that may seem bizarre to others (like I have zero problem with taking 5+ minutes to take fishing line off the reef, making sure not to rip anything in the process, in my opinion... If you see it and leave it, your just as bad as the person who left it there in the first place) just like divers, drivers, husbands, and such...there are good DMs, and there are bad ones.

Im betting that if you took a survey on divers behaving badly, the DM's on the board could curl your toes with what we see everyday. Maybe someone should start it and see how it develops....oh wait a minute, I'm almost certain a thread like that would be pulled within a day of reading what "really" goes on down below...

Feel Better, Sorry I'm no MASTER. I'm too ignorant to know not to go stick my hands in fishes mouths. While stepping on the coral. I was hoping the trained Master proffesional would have told me not to do that. Vickie, I'm teasing. We're fighting the same fight. I got PO this weekend by the lousy behavior of a DM who I went diving with. I apologize for sounding like I was belittling DM's. I know good divers and bad divers. Now, If ya'll will excuse me, I'm going for my fourth and final dive of the year !!!! P.S. Eventhough I'm complaining. I had a great time diving with floridajeff and steintheman this weekend.

 

[Hank49]

Oh by the way, are you certain he was harrassing the shark? Would you stake your life on that "fact"? It looks bad but I wasn't there and have no idea.

Good point Al. I would bet that this photo with the shark was taken at Shark Ray Alley between Ambergris and Caye Caulker. There is a resident population of nurse sharks and sting rays that come right up to your boat when you arrive expecting food. Many DMs and guides handle them and it doesn't seem to bother them too bad since they hang around and have probably all been handled. Who knows? Maybe they actually like it.

 

[Kamala]

To those turning around and pointing fingers back at the ignorant masses, that doesn't seem to be the point of this thread. Divemasters are supposed to exhibit leadership qualities, as PADI, SSI, and NAUI, all state below. A DM should be held to a higher standard because it is their example and their answers to questions that will inform the minds of novice divers. Not everyone intuitively knows not to touch things. I'd actually argue that the desire to explore an alien environment that makes SCUBA diving attractive to so many of us makes not touching counter-intuitive. If, as so many people on this board state, SCUBA is an ongoing learning process, who are we learning from if we can't rely on DMs to set a good example, especially since DMs are the scuba professionals we're most likely to have contact with after certification? Yes, the great masses of newbies and perpetual ignorants are often destructive, but let's not turn a good opportunity to discuss a real issue into a schoolyard pointing match. SCUBA is a very poor field for "do as I say, not as I do" to be a governing standard, particularly since it's pretty hard to say anything underwater.

From the PADI Divemaster webpage:
Take the first step in your dive career and become a PADI Divemaster. Working closely with a PADI Instructor, you'll expand your dive knowledge and hone your skills as you become a dive professional. PADI Divemaster training develops your leadership abilities by training you to supervise dive activities and assist instructors with student divers.

From SSI's Divemaster equivalent webpage:
SSI Dive Control Specialist is SSI's initial dive leadership level and is considered by many as the "fun" leadership rating. That's because you can do more than any other entry-level dive leader. You can do more because you receive both dive master and assistant instructor training in the SSI Dive Control Specialist course. With other agencies, these courses are separate.

From the NAUI Divemaster webapage:
The NAUI Divemaster rating is the highest NAUI leadership-level certification with the exception of Instructor. The program is designed to train experienced and knowledgeable divers to organize and conduct enjoyable open water dives for certified divers.

 

[Iruka]

There's a continuum between "touch nothing" & "kill everything," and everyone has their own point along it. For me, I don't bother fish, octopus, & turtles. I try to keep my divers off the bottom, prevent them from holding live coral, etc. On the other hand, I'll probably pick up invertebrates...for example, a conch shell is just brown & ugly from above...you can't see the colors unless you turn it over. Some kinds of starfish & sea cucumbers as well....there will often be tiny shrimp or crabs on them, but they are quite often hiding underneath. I don't feel that gently picking up, turning over, and then replacing these animals causes them any harm. Sometimes divers don't realize how much there is to see, unless you point it out to them.

For octopus, I try to point them out from 15 or 20' away (we have good visibility here)...when they'll usually be sticking well out of their hiding place....and they shrink back when you approach. Once in a while I'll wiggle a finger near them, and they'll reach out with a tentacle to see what I am. But that's the extent of it...no need to get them to come out if they don't feel like it. Sometimes if you're quiet & patient, they'll come out on their own. But I've seen octopus here die from overhandling...when the DM (or DMs, in some cases) feel that EVERY customer has to hold the octopus. Octopus generally struggle to escape, which I assume causes stress to them.

 

[baitedstorm]

Feel Better, Sorry I'm no MASTER. I'm too ignorant to know not to go stick my hands in fishes mouths. While stepping on the coral. I was hoping the trained Master proffesional would have told me not to do that. Vickie, I'm teasing. We're fighting the same fight. I got PO this weekend by the lousy behavior of a DM who I went diving with. I apologize for sounding like I was belittling DM's. I know good divers and bad divers. Now, If ya'll will excuse me, I'm going for my fourth and final dive of the year !!!! P.S. Eventhough I'm complaining. I had a great time diving with floridajeff and steintheman this weekend.

I'm with ya!!! I get ticked off all the time by the "pro's". I guess I just took a particular comment the wrong way. No kidding about what we see on any given day. It's my job to keep a smile and gently let them know how they "might" want to try it a different way next time. I know there's bad DM's out there, and there always will be. FYI, I do understand the intent of this thread and you were totally justified by writing it. I merely want to make sure you know what's it's like on the other side to broaden your prospective.

 

[Charlie99]

Here's a couple photos of a DM on a Maui boat that I no longer use. Does PADI have a shark wrestling cert ??

 

[Nic160]

I'm with ya!!! I get ticked off all the time by the "pro's". I guess I just took a particular comment the wrong way. No kidding about what we see on any given day. It's my job to keep a smile and gently let them know how they "might" want to try it a different way next time. I know there's bad DM's out there, and there always will be. FYI, I do understand the intent of this thread and you were totally justified by writing it. I merely want to make sure you know what's it's like on the other side to broaden your prospective.

Thank You for the insight. I have no doubt you get to see all kinds of interesting things everyday.

 

[TheDavil]

Here's a couple photos of a DM on a Maui boat that I no longer use. Does PADI have a shark wrestling cert ??

That reminded me of when my wife and I took our OW cert dives with the same DM - I remember him turning a rock over and trying to pull out a brittle star. Didn't quit until he pulled an arm off...

He was really good at teaching skills, but obviously not so good at teaching respect for the critters...

David