Do we need instructors?

[herbdb]

Both mentoring and formal instructing have their place. One is needed to help insure minimum standards, the other to introduce other techniques and other aspects of the sport.

As a new diver, I see both aspects happening in the water and out.

This forum is a form of mentoring. I have learned many lessons the easy way reading your experiences. I try to pass these on to my sons who are also beginners.

I was an Air Force pilot for many years and both forms of education were important to us. Once you had the basics, you learned the rest informally. A lot of lives were saved by lessons learned over a beer in the bar on Friday night.

 

[Diver0001]

I guess part of what brought this thread about was the constant talk about the low standards of diving. On the one hand, not many people are dying so I guess it works. On the other hand the standards are so low that the main reason for taking the classes is only because you have to.

Acutally, climbing is probably a good parallel for diving. It's a *relatively* safe sport for beginners within certain boundaries with a high degree of dependency on equipment and a buddy system.

I think, in fact, that in diving, as much as in climbing, you learn from the people you dive with. Initial instruction is somewhat limited because you don't really gain any *experience* in a diving course, only the skills. So in fact, most learning is done via "mentoring" and self-practice.

Also, similarly to climbing, everyone thinks that everone else is doing it wrong... LOL but that's another topic.

One thing I object to, and I've mentioned this before, is that *standards* are not necessarily the problem. The standards are not that low. What sometimes gets confused is "standards" versus "instructor judgment". In many skills the bar for proficiency is set more by the instructor's judgement than the letter of the law. If we have issues with poor training, then I would suggest that instructors and not agencies are to blame. Some people blame the agencies for giving the instructor too much "wiggle room" but the basic problem is still that there are some (many) below-par instructors out there.

R..

 

[Garrobo]

I would ask if we need certification.

 

[jaycanwk]

I would ask if we need certification.

In very general terms you don't require certification to dive, as in, there is no official goverment law on the books that I know of.

However, most LDS's and dive boat operators require certification as a mutually agreed upon "industry" standard.

 

[Diver0001]

(I can't believe I'm saying this).

Niether can I... LOL.

Just for your information, I'm Canadian but I happen to live in Europe.

What I was thinking about when I posted that was my own experience of being taught how to drive by my father way out in the boom docks where climbing mountains in a 4x4 was something you teach teenagers but how to make a left turn at a streetlight (our town only had one streetlight and it flashed yellow all the time), was not.

When I moved to Vancouver I was ill prepared for what awaited me, to say the least.

The point was, and why it's relevant for this thread, is my father taught me what *he* thought was important, not what I needed to become a safe driver....

Eventually I did take driving lessons from a professional and learned a lot from it.

R..

 

[ianr33]

So maybe we have some climbers cum divers here on the board who could give us their take on the question as to if / why one of the activities requires formal instruction whereas the other doesn't? I do only a little climbing occasionally not at a very advanced level at all, so to me the two seem pretty comparable as I said above, but I'm really interested in other people's opinion there.

I used to climb to a reasonable standard. Lost a few friends on big mountains.

Its a question that has often puzzled me. I have never taken a single climbing course.

I think there are a few reasons for the difference.
1) The dangers of diving are more subtle. DCS,narcosis etc etc are not obvious problems to a non diver, whereas the consequences of falling 500 feet into hard rocks are pretty clear
2)Its easier for the diving industry to control the participants. Most people don't have their own compressors. Anyone can walk up to a cliff and start climbing it.
3)Climbing used to be (its changing unfortunately) a non mainstream activity. No glossy marketing brochures extolling the wonders of the spa after a day on the rocks

Cave diving reminds me of climbing in lots of ways. You pick your partners carefully and if you make a major screwup then you die. Personal choices and personal responsibility. I like that. Lots of impressive rocks as well

My opinion is that formal instruction in diving is needed when you start something new. Maybe have 3 mandatory courses. Learn to dive, deco diving, overhead diving.

IMHO there are far too many courses. Does a certified deco diver (good for 150 feet) really need to do an extended range course (gets you to 180) and an intro trimix course (200 feet) The Trimix course work out at around $50 per foot of extra certification depth. !

 

[AfterDark]

I've taught a few people tpodive. I've always recommend they take a formal course later. All went on to be good divers one even opened a dive shop and became an instructor. The only person I couldn't teach was my wife, big surprise there huh?
Aside from the usual husband wife teaching difficulties she is afraid of being underwater. So it was a double challange that proved too much.
That being said I think instructors are necessary, if the diving industry doesn't have standards and structure (the root of instructor) you can bet that big brother will step in and make a giant mess of things with impossible regulations and fees for everything under the sun. Getting certs are expensive enough now without big brother involved.

 

[redacted]

I've taught a few people tpodive. I've always recommend they take a formal course later. All went on to be good divers one even opened a dive shop and became an instructor. The only person I couldn't teach was my wife, big surprise there huh?
Aside from the usual husband wife teaching difficulties she is afraid of being underwater. So it was a double challange that proved too much.
That being said I think instructors are necessary, if the diving industry doesn't have standards and structure (the root of instructor) you can bet that big brother will step in and make a giant mess of things with impossible regulations and fees for everything under the sun. Getting certs are expensive enough now without big brother involved.

Do you think it would cost more for an agency to test, issue, and manage divers licenses than it currently costs to do the same with drivers licenses? I'm not saying whether the government should take it over or an agency(s) should manage it, but I would like to see training separated from testing and certification.

I also don't see any of the current US agencies adopting such a change. I wonder how we could import it from the UK.

 

[leapfrog]

Instructors are necessary. A mentoring system would have people cutting corners the whole time especially with family and friends.
"Dad, do really need to perform this skill again?"
"Naw, it's lunch time, let's call it a day".
Unfortunately, without badges and pass/fail authority over people, it would be an even bigger mess than the one we currently have. Most young people I have instructed didn't really want to learn, they just wanted the C card. The sad part is their university educated $100,000 a year income parents are often the same way too!

The most important part of being an Instructor is your ethos and how you instill that in your students and the divers you guide.

 

[ptyx]

A good mentor is an excellent way to learn, but it is hard to tell if your mentor is good or not until you have a lot of experience.

France (FFESSM) has something similar to BSAC, with formalized mentoring: mentors/instructors are fellow members of your dive club, are not paid, but need to follow CMAS rules and require a certain level of training before they can teach. It's a mixed bag as depending who you learn with (and where) you can get top quality mentoring or ... not. The requirements on mentors are supposed to filter out the really bad ones, but it's hard for clubs to turn away volunteers and it's difficult for the federation to impose too much training on the mentors and keep that system running.

One advantage of agencies is that they seem to place the bar - although low - a bit higher. A disadvantage is that economic realities mean that it's impossible to get really good teaching without a ton of cash.

So... mentors are good - and often better than your average paid instructor - but I wouldn't trust a diver taught only by a mentor without knowing the mentor - or a checkout dive (not that I would trust a PADI OW much more...).

What I would love to see is an agency offering an open examination process where anyone, mentored or from another agency, can get an 'official' recognition of their expertise. A hard written test, a dive log check, and a checkout dive or two.