Do You Approve Of Quickie Certifications?

[JoeFL]

Hi All... This is my first post on these boards...oooh aaah.

Anyway, I have wondered about this ever since I got certified back in 1993. I did my OW1 with a NAUI/YMCA shop in PA. It was a 10 week course plus two weekends for checkout dives at Dutch Springs. The first 10 weeks consisted of one three-hour class per week (1 1/2 hour in classroom, and 1 1/2 in pool).

About half way through the training I bought all my gear (minus tanks) at a different dive shop... a PADI shop. I was talking with one of their instructors about my training and he was surprised at all the stuff we were being taught that he didn't teach... Lots of swimming laps (no scuba) above and below water in pool, ditch and don (over and over again...that was tough), two full classes on rescue techniques (3 hours pool training), lots of underwater poking and prodding from instructors in the pool like tugging on our regs and pulling our masks off and similar things. Prior to hearing his surprise I was thinking, 'Man, this dive training is tougher than I thought,' but then I realized how much better prepared I would be than his new divers after just a weekend of class/pool work and another weekend of checkout dives. In my 10 week class instructions were drilled into our heads, over and over (it wasn't as tedious as that sounds) and our skills were tested from day 1, so by the time we did our checkouts we were confident, comfortable with our gear, and just generally well prepared. There is no way that I would have been as well trained in a weekend, and I know the rest of my class would agree.

Anyway, I would never recomend a weekend class to a new diver. As a refresher maybe, but not for a new diver. Can a 2 day course get you diving? Sure, but I just can't believe it can prepare the average dive student for the problems that can arise on a dive.

Oh, and no offense to PADI based on that one instructor, but because of my NAUI training experience, they have a loyal supporter in me.

 

[Scubadawg]

Just like everything else in life,

If you want it to be good at something it takes time
If you want cheap and uneducated divers it takes no time at all

The more time you spend on something the more you will appreciate it in the end.

Scubaddawg

 

[jepuskar]

What happened at Gilboa on the 1st?

Any details?

Jason

 

[gkwaldee]

at the prospect of being "labeled" here, Ill give my take.........

My class took 3 days........the first day started with a discussion about the reading, followed by the quizes, followed by the test. Maybe others have serious problems comprehending the basics, to me its pretty simple.

Let me take a moment to discuss my previous statement, I was in a class of one (me) and I had read the book and did the study quizes beforehand. The instructor felt (obviously) comfortable enough to advance quickly through the "basics" due to my knowledge of the information...........He must still feel that way because we still dive together (whether hunting or just blowing bubbles) often. As I stated before, maybe the concepts just alude some people, but I just cant seem to see where its all that hard (as far as OW or AOW is concerned).

I mean, counting kicks to navigate isnt difficult, but Ill always try to get better at bouyancy. Understanding that this sport can KILL you if you screw up does a good job of insuring safety......Really, the stupid shall be punished........while that is a harsh statement, its true............

All that said, I certified on Guam, but grew up in Florida........Ive been around (and in) the water all my life and the water dont scare me, its what might be hiding in 200 fathoms under me that does. LOL On top of all that, Im in the Navy (Submarines)..........maybe that makes a difference.

To say that the person finishing cert quickly isnt safe, or is less qualified to enjoy this sport is just nuts. I have dived with a few people that have alot more experience than I do, have been certified at higher levels than me that Ill never dive with again because I feel theyre unsafe.

Me and my buddy will always practice skills. Not because we got taught that in class, but because we love each other and want to spend the rest of our lives together. Its about smart choices, not about class time. Granted, there are instructors out there that shouldnt be teaching, but I think theres more people out there that shouldnt be diving, no matter what training they have.

Maybe the answer is to just deny people the opportunity to dive if they cant handle themselves safely..........Just like they do with drivers or pilots.

just my 2 cents

tiny bubbles

 

[Diver0001]

Al Mialkovsky once bubbled...
While I've been diving since the late 60's my wife only got certified two years ago. Her OW class only took two days. While she did great, as she's very comfortable in the water, I personally know many people who would not have been ready so quickly. What do you guys think about this sort of thing. I know my LDS insists you can't be ready for a month. But then again they don't charge 150 bucks either.

I said "never" but I'll preface that by asking the question "what is quick?". You said 2 days. I say you can't learn to dive in 2 days. You can learn to hang on to a buddy/DM/inst and hope for the best in 2 days. If you're lucky you'll survive long enough to learn how to dive at some point. If you're unlucky you'll have some kind of incident and give up diving or worse. I think PADI's normal OW course is plenty fast (or even too fast) for most people.

R..

 

[MikeFerrara]

gkwaldee once bubbled...
I mean, counting kicks to navigate isnt difficult, but Ill always try to get better at bouyancy. Understanding that this sport can KILL you if you screw up does a good job of insuring safety......Really, the stupid shall be punished........

The stuid...yes...and the unknowing.

Its about smart choices, not about class time.

Class time can help one learn what smart choices are. It's also about solid basic skills. Without good skills the first poor choice is getting in the water with scuba on. Thorough classes develop good skills.

 

[DameDykker]

I voted never. However, everything is possible once in a blue moon. A point no-one mentioned so far is that it takes time for the lessons to consolidate and the good questions to surface. The typical week between pool sessions and open water does that for quite a few people.

My 2 Cents (that's € cents for your Americans )

 

[gkwaldee]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


The stuid...yes...and the unknowing.


Class time can help one learn what smart choices are. It's also about solid basic skills. Without good skills the first poor choice is getting in the water with scuba on. Thorough classes develop good skills.

All true...........but the information is there, if people are just too stupid to understand the value of life...........then THATS not ignorance.

The premise of the thread is whether or not a "quicky" course is a good or bad thing.........thats like asking if a gun is a good or bad thing...........its only as good or bad as the hand its in.

Guess what? A few years ago, many people lost their shorts in the stock market...........why? Not because the market was "bad".........because they didnt have a clue what they were doing, and didnt take the time to learn it.

Some people are just stupid.........I remember a story I heard a few years back......A buddy of mine was delivering furniture on the side, he pulled into the yard to see a teenager throwing a concrete block up in the air and watching it fall, his dad stepped out of the trailer and said "Mistake!! Git in the house!!"

I rest my case

tiny bubbles

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

As WCH pointed out, the numbers support the quickie certs as safer than they used to be, and there wasn't a lot of flaming them back then. Others of you give examples of incident reports occuring from some locations on a regular basis. Seems that incidents go up almost exponentially as conditions worsen, minor problems in a tropical setting, become survival experiences in cold dark waters, and that was my point, it takes a lot more time to train divers for less desirable conditions, and much like tech diving, diving in poor conditions is just INHERENTLY more dangerous, and demanding of superior skill levels. Perhaps the REAL answer here is to have the cert agencies adjust training schedules for local and regional factors. Something like OW-Tropical, OW-SkillsPlus, OW-SevereConditions cert levels make a lot of sense to me.

Instead of just flaming the practice of quickie certs, we need to be actively pushing a safer, yet cost effective, alternative plan!

Some food for thought,

Darlene

 

[MikeFerrara]

gkwaldee,

Speed isn't the issue. Quality and thoroughness are the issues. In my experience many classes are not thorough. The information is out there but it isn't presented in many diving texts and classes. It's unreasonable to expect divers to make good decissions with bad or incomplete information. That's what we're dealing with.