Do you think humble divers are usually safer divers?
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Hey scywin and Dyno Bill, yes, given the chance I would definitaly dive with you guys. My friend's brother has got 80 dives in so I may do some local stuff with him or do an AOW in Dutch Springs with the local DS and start to get some "real" dives in.
But that 71 degree water sure sounds nice
RiverRat
But that 71 degree water sure sounds nice
RiverRat
I appreciate the honest insight you've given into your experience as a new diver. For a first dive in low visibility, the experience you had is not uncommon. You shouldn't be discouraged by this experience at all. If anything, you've been humbled by it, and it will most likely make you a better, and safer diver in the future. A humbling experience like that is a good thing. Sadly, alot of divers who aren't humble don't live to tell about there experiences.
I'm concerned that so many divers who replied to my post missed the point of what I was saying. I witnessed a couple of Instructors about a year ago free-diving down to the air bell at Blue Grotto with their students looking on. (laughing at their behavior) After witnessing this irresponsible behavior, I mentioned it to the manager of the facility as I was leaving. One of the Instructors involved was an Instructor/Instructor, plus was a high ranking member (board member if you will) over one of the most popular dive agencies in the world. The manager at the facility couldn't believe his ears when I told him who did it. He asked was I sure that it was him, and three of the other divers in the shop that were diving that day quickly agreed that it was him. This guy was doing all this in front of a group of brand new students. He was strutting around like a rooster bragging about how deep he could free dive, and how long he can hold his breath. This was one instance out of many I've seen. This past weekend I was diving at a quarry with about 40-50 divers. About 14 of them were students, and a dozen were Instructors, or Divemasters. Only one Instructor, and one divemaster was with the class, the rest where there for recreation. It was like roosterfest or something the way they were strutting around, telling stories of their ignorant behavior while diving, and acting as though they were 10 foot tall, and bullet proof while diving. Since I was working at the facility, I was ashamed for these students to witness this behavior. I made sure to go by the class later in the day, and tell them that, "see, this is a good example of what you don't want to become as a diver". They all just nodded their heads to agree, and whispered to me," those guys are Instructors/Divemasters?" (with a serious sound of disbelief in their voices) I couldn't lie, and nodded yes, as I dropped my head, and walked away.
The Instructor, divemaster that had the class there hurried to get done with their class, and get out of their as quickly as possible as to avoid any further exposure to the bad image that existed there. Can't say I blame them. I just don't understand how Dive Professionals, and technical divers can turn out to be so irresponsible as that. Especially in front of a group of students. Since they weren't doing anything other than setting a terrible example, we couldn't really do anything other than ask them to have a bit of respect for the class. One of the Instructors said, screw them, "I paid my admission to get in here just like they did. If they have a problem with me, they can leave."
This is a serious matter of ethics, and it's not an unusual case. I've been seeing more, and more of this macho crap every year, and it's simply unprofessional, and irresponsible behavior no matter how you slice it. Maybe Dive Professionals should have a code of ethics (standard of conduct) to agree to abide by. It might not make them abide by it, but it would certainly make them aware of the example in which they should be setting for others, especially students.
Dive humble~
"Splash"
I'm concerned that so many divers who replied to my post missed the point of what I was saying. I witnessed a couple of Instructors about a year ago free-diving down to the air bell at Blue Grotto with their students looking on. (laughing at their behavior) After witnessing this irresponsible behavior, I mentioned it to the manager of the facility as I was leaving. One of the Instructors involved was an Instructor/Instructor, plus was a high ranking member (board member if you will) over one of the most popular dive agencies in the world. The manager at the facility couldn't believe his ears when I told him who did it. He asked was I sure that it was him, and three of the other divers in the shop that were diving that day quickly agreed that it was him. This guy was doing all this in front of a group of brand new students. He was strutting around like a rooster bragging about how deep he could free dive, and how long he can hold his breath. This was one instance out of many I've seen. This past weekend I was diving at a quarry with about 40-50 divers. About 14 of them were students, and a dozen were Instructors, or Divemasters. Only one Instructor, and one divemaster was with the class, the rest where there for recreation. It was like roosterfest or something the way they were strutting around, telling stories of their ignorant behavior while diving, and acting as though they were 10 foot tall, and bullet proof while diving. Since I was working at the facility, I was ashamed for these students to witness this behavior. I made sure to go by the class later in the day, and tell them that, "see, this is a good example of what you don't want to become as a diver". They all just nodded their heads to agree, and whispered to me," those guys are Instructors/Divemasters?" (with a serious sound of disbelief in their voices) I couldn't lie, and nodded yes, as I dropped my head, and walked away.
The Instructor, divemaster that had the class there hurried to get done with their class, and get out of their as quickly as possible as to avoid any further exposure to the bad image that existed there. Can't say I blame them. I just don't understand how Dive Professionals, and technical divers can turn out to be so irresponsible as that. Especially in front of a group of students. Since they weren't doing anything other than setting a terrible example, we couldn't really do anything other than ask them to have a bit of respect for the class. One of the Instructors said, screw them, "I paid my admission to get in here just like they did. If they have a problem with me, they can leave."
This is a serious matter of ethics, and it's not an unusual case. I've been seeing more, and more of this macho crap every year, and it's simply unprofessional, and irresponsible behavior no matter how you slice it. Maybe Dive Professionals should have a code of ethics (standard of conduct) to agree to abide by. It might not make them abide by it, but it would certainly make them aware of the example in which they should be setting for others, especially students.
Dive humble~
"Splash"
I am not a "professional" so I missed your focus on Instructors/Professionals. I have not noticed what you are referring to as something that is changing year to year, but I think we all wind up setting examples by our behavior. Definitely something to think about the next time each of us dives, professional or not.
Thanks
Thanks
There's some scary stuff out there. As a better example my class had about 12 students, 1 instructor, 1 asistant instructor (husband and wife team) and a DM to assist. It looked to me like the 3 of them had their hands full trying not to lose divers in the poor vis, counting and recounting divers, trying to keep track of who got what skills (OW and some other training exercises from another class ) etc. Granted the conditions may have warranted the "extra" help they had.
In your case it was more divers and one less instructor/DM.
And the rest of them were goofing off?
I think when a dive business focuses more on how many students they can cram in a class to make more profit per hour then they lose sight of what teaching is all about. Many instructors do teaching part time for their own enjoyment and satisfaction at helping others and they don't make a ton of money. Crap like that really reflects on all the decent instructors out there and the rest of the business as well.
RR
In your case it was more divers and one less instructor/DM.
And the rest of them were goofing off?
I think when a dive business focuses more on how many students they can cram in a class to make more profit per hour then they lose sight of what teaching is all about. Many instructors do teaching part time for their own enjoyment and satisfaction at helping others and they don't make a ton of money. Crap like that really reflects on all the decent instructors out there and the rest of the business as well.
RR
I can easily believe the stories that I am reading.
As to the behavior that people are referring to, I have seen a great deal of "cowboy stuff" among the instructors and dive professionals that I have seen from all agencies. I will say that if I see many students and few instructors/assistants (actually the twelve to three that I read sounds like a good ratio to me and 14 to two sounds like it's a tad light on the instructor portion to me), even as a non-professional, I try to stay out of the area that they are using. As to the "goofing off", even after I get my Dive Control Specialist Cert next month, I would still stay out of their way.
Some places, like Gilboa Quarry on a weekend during the summer, that is not always possible. Some of the behavior by the "off duty" instructors/d.p.'s can be pretty arrogant and I will say near Darwinian.
I will agree that humility is a virtue in that it forces one to learn their limits. This is not to say that those limits can't be extended, but I choose to do it through more classes (where I have an instructor around) not like some others (thankfully most of these are not "dive professionals" to my knowledge) who simply roll the dice and dive deep on air just because the wreck is there and then deco on 100 percent O2 (which you don't need a dive shop to get if you have an oxygen provider certification or other medical credentials) using bootleg tables and/or their computers. If they survive it (which admittedly 99 percent of them do), they come out of it far better divers than I am with less in the way of credentials because nothing teaches like experience. But, I don't feel confident enough in my abilities to stretch my limits in this manner. The closer to the edge my diving gets, the more careful that I have to be. That is why sometimes it is fun just doing a 30 ft. dive and hitting the water. I can improve my buoyancy skills by staying shallow as well. Those can always use work.
I work on true humility every day when I see the attitude of some of the people who don't. And I am far from perfect in that regard myself. The people who think and act like they know everything scare me! To me the primary lesson from The Last Dive and books like it involves what can happen to divers when they don't check their egos at the door. When I start to feel too cocky, I read one of those books and it reminds how little that I know. These guys were much better and more knowledgeable divers that I am, many of them are dead or have been severely bent because they didn't think that it would happen to them.
As to the behavior that people are referring to, I have seen a great deal of "cowboy stuff" among the instructors and dive professionals that I have seen from all agencies. I will say that if I see many students and few instructors/assistants (actually the twelve to three that I read sounds like a good ratio to me and 14 to two sounds like it's a tad light on the instructor portion to me), even as a non-professional, I try to stay out of the area that they are using. As to the "goofing off", even after I get my Dive Control Specialist Cert next month, I would still stay out of their way.
Some places, like Gilboa Quarry on a weekend during the summer, that is not always possible. Some of the behavior by the "off duty" instructors/d.p.'s can be pretty arrogant and I will say near Darwinian.
I will agree that humility is a virtue in that it forces one to learn their limits. This is not to say that those limits can't be extended, but I choose to do it through more classes (where I have an instructor around) not like some others (thankfully most of these are not "dive professionals" to my knowledge) who simply roll the dice and dive deep on air just because the wreck is there and then deco on 100 percent O2 (which you don't need a dive shop to get if you have an oxygen provider certification or other medical credentials) using bootleg tables and/or their computers. If they survive it (which admittedly 99 percent of them do), they come out of it far better divers than I am with less in the way of credentials because nothing teaches like experience. But, I don't feel confident enough in my abilities to stretch my limits in this manner. The closer to the edge my diving gets, the more careful that I have to be. That is why sometimes it is fun just doing a 30 ft. dive and hitting the water. I can improve my buoyancy skills by staying shallow as well.
Those can always use work. I work on true humility every day when I see the attitude of some of the people who don't. And I am far from perfect in that regard myself. The people who think and act like they know everything scare me! To me the primary lesson from The Last Dive and books like it involves what can happen to divers when they don't check their egos at the door. When I start to feel too cocky, I read one of those books and it reminds how little that I know. These guys were much better and more knowledgeable divers that I am, many of them are dead or have been severely bent because they didn't think that it would happen to them.
I don't think one can make a blanket statement that humble divers are better divers. In some cases yes, in some no. Look at the eyes. The eyes tell the story. Good divers have a certain awarness and calmness about them. They go about their business in a confident, matter of fact manner. They have adapted their gear to what works best for them, no matter what someone else says. Humility is good, confidence due to training and experience is better. Remember the eyes. :tree: Bob
tssplash, yes yes yes - I agree. I've lived in FL my whole live, and been diving for 18 years. When I first started, no matter what the composition of the group, there always seemed to be this "we're off on an adventure together" attitude. Teamwork (recreational diving IS a buddy system, after all!) and a sense of connectedness made it safe and fun.
It does seem to be becoming more of a competition lately. Maybe it was when I was younger, too, but I didn't notice because youth made ME one of the cocky ones..., and I didn't see it in myself....
One thing I've learned though - no matter how "together" a diver seems (acting confident or cocky or even humble), the only way to know is to ask questions about their history and experience, and go over your plans before a dive. The more humble divers are easier to approach with these kinds of questions.
As some people have posted here - having a realistic picture of your dive skills is important. In interviewing an un-known diver before a dive, you can usually pick up on whether they're full of it or not. I recently dived with someone who admitted to me that he had a tendency to be a little claustrophobic - and therefore had no interest in entering an overhead environment. No problem. He was honest about his limitation, and I didn't mind staying out of overhead environments - I could take it or leave it. I was also glad that he found me approachable (humble?) enough to be open with.
A skilled, confident person can be humble; and a skilled, confident person can be cocky. In my opinion, the former is simply more pleasant to dive with.
It does seem to be becoming more of a competition lately. Maybe it was when I was younger, too, but I didn't notice because youth made ME one of the cocky ones..., and I didn't see it in myself....
One thing I've learned though - no matter how "together" a diver seems (acting confident or cocky or even humble), the only way to know is to ask questions about their history and experience, and go over your plans before a dive. The more humble divers are easier to approach with these kinds of questions.
As some people have posted here - having a realistic picture of your dive skills is important. In interviewing an un-known diver before a dive, you can usually pick up on whether they're full of it or not. I recently dived with someone who admitted to me that he had a tendency to be a little claustrophobic - and therefore had no interest in entering an overhead environment. No problem. He was honest about his limitation, and I didn't mind staying out of overhead environments - I could take it or leave it. I was also glad that he found me approachable (humble?) enough to be open with.
A skilled, confident person can be humble; and a skilled, confident person can be cocky. In my opinion, the former is simply more pleasant to dive with.
When I dive with a buddy rather than solo, I definitely prefer ones who are not cocky... so I dive with female buddies almost exclusively (solves both interpretations of that word).
Dr. Bill
Dr. Bill
The question was do you think humble divers are USUALLY safer divers? That is not a blanket question. That is a legitimate question that basically asks do you think a diver who is honest with himself, and fellow divers (dive buddies) about his own limitations, and weaknesses is a usually a safer diver? Some people see what they want to see in a question instead of what the question really asks which steers the question, and confuses people. Some just don't bother keeping a dictionary at their computer to look up the definition to words that they do not know the meaning to. Again, humble means: having, or showing a conciousness of one's own defects.
Personally, I don't see any diver (regardless of his/her skill level) as safe if they show no humility. I also believe that all this unnecessary competitiveness that seems to be so common is breeding this lack of humility. We all can admit that a lack of skill can definitely cause casualties, but I'd be willing to bet the farm that overcompetitiveness, and lack of humility (which are very relative to one another) have caused just as many, or more casualties in diving.
"Splash"
Personally, I don't see any diver (regardless of his/her skill level) as safe if they show no humility. I also believe that all this unnecessary competitiveness that seems to be so common is breeding this lack of humility. We all can admit that a lack of skill can definitely cause casualties, but I'd be willing to bet the farm that overcompetitiveness, and lack of humility (which are very relative to one another) have caused just as many, or more casualties in diving.
"Splash"
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