Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[don Francisco]

I know I'll get flamed for this (politely of couses because of the rules) but with all due respect to those who wish to increase dive flag awareness, trying to improve our safety by changing the behavior of others is the wrong approach.

While increased awareness will definitely help, it will never assure safety in any particular circumstance. There will always be fools and drunks running boats at speed on the surface, and statistics show that they manage to hit targets much bigger and more visible than divers or their flags.

What can we do.

1- Avoid surfacing in crowded waters and channels. When diving in congested areas, plan entries and exits in sheltered locations near shore, near anchored boats, or close to our own boat if drift diving.

2- Be aware of draft and keel depths of boats in areas where we dive and plan our dives and safety stops to be well below them.

3- Minimize the time when we're vulnerable on the surface.

4- If using a dive flag, use one large and visible enough to be clearly seen at a distance appropriate to the speed and size of the vessels operating in the area.

If we decide to ask for stronger legal protections, we need to consider potential unexpected consequences. For example, if aware of the dangers posed by boaters and divers sharing the same waters, legislators might decide that, in the interest of safety, banning divers makes more sense.

 

[danvolker]

It is most unfortunate that the internet provides an easy way to post your inner most feelings and emotional outbursts and removes all ability to share the non-verbal cues most of us take for granted. We cannot use body language, tone, facial gestures or context (as in conversational context) to modify our language in posts.

I would have a hard time actually believing that boaters actually try to run down divers, water skiers or any one else.

I would have an easy time understanding that people who ÅÅrive boats one day a weekend every month or so have little understanding of the physics of boating. There is not the same friction surface between a boat and the water as with a car and the road. It takes much more effort and distance to turn and to stop in a boat than in a car. Without training and experience, the differences are not readily intuitive.

Perhaps what we need in terms of law is stronger enforcement of the laws already in existence and a more emphatic legal presence on the water during peak recreational hours. Almost every state has laws against operating a boat while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Every state has laws that prohibit actively seeking to endanger others.

In any case, educating boaters and making boater education mandatory would certainly increase awareness.

Ian,
Even though I am pissed, I am not suggesting that a large number of boaters actually "try" to run over divers...what I am suggesting, is that they just don't think anything at all about them, that they do not feel compelled to constantly scan the reef line for dive flags...
You have plenty of 30 to 50 foot boats that will run for many miles over the reef tops..this in itself is crazy, and should not be allowed where divers may be present---a 50 foot sportfish running at 35 mph can be on top of you in seconds, if the captain just looks away for a few moments.
and while the professional sprtfish boats are NOT the major offenders here as a group, the guys who own their own 30 to 50 footers, and are out with their own "missions", are. They do NOT need to be running on the reef tops......And trust me, they are NOT thinking about dive flags, as they run at high speed, mile after mile over the reef top.
Dan

 

[ScubaSteve]

Good Points Don. I do not think a flaming is owing for that post. I do think that mitigating the risk by knowing the area, the boats and staying deep enough to be safe is important. I also believe that stressing the importance of the dive flag and trying to raise the public's awareness is not the wrong approach. I think that if there is a law in place, it should be enforced. I do not think it should be increased or decreased necessarily, just enforced. It is different everywhere you go but a minimum distance from the flag is required with consequences for not complying. I think if there was a way to improve the enforcement without endangering out rights to dive, then that would be great. You are right.....in many cases I think the diver's rights would lose out before the boater's rights.

 

[Nemrod]

There was an incident I believe reported on this board about a couple at the Panama City jetty who were assaulted by a boat load of fisherman, had a gun pulled on them and they were PURPOSELY hooked.

I am sorry folks, some people, fisherman in particular and jet skiers by default will run you down--on purpose. Most of this goes unreported due to the difficulty of doing so and the fact law enforcement does not really seem to care.

I used to be against a boating license but nowadays I am in favor including jet skis.

Last year at the Liberty Ship in Destin I had a boat load of fisherman circle my boat so close it was virtually impossible for my wife and I to surface. They were shouting obscenities at my elderly parents. Little did they know there was a stainless Mini 30 in the console. But fortunately we believe in being nice and behaving civilized. I was able to get aboard and get on the VHF, at that point they took off. We had it on my cell phone camera and their numbers and the CG could care less. They came very close to hitting my wife. If they had, I would have killed them all. And by the way, we did not yell, we did not use any vulgar hand signals, we did not scream, we did not use any obscenities, nor did we display or announce any sort of weapons or other gross behaviors, we tried to ignore them, we tried to be nice. There are bad people out there who will hurt you, enforcement of laws, a no drinking while boating law and more civility and education and a required boating license might help.

N

 

[danvolker]

Good Points Don. I do not think a flaming is owing for that post. I do think that mitigating the risk by knowing the area, the boats and staying deep enough to be safe is important. I also believe that stressing the importance of the dive flag and trying to raise the public's awareness is not the wrong approach. I think that if there is a law in place, it should be enforced. I do not think it should be increased or decreased necessarily, just enforced. It is different everywhere you go but a minimum distance from the flag is required with consequences for not complying. I think if there was a way to improve the enforcement without endangering out rights to dive, then that would be great. You are right.....in many cases I think the diver's rights would lose out before the boater's rights.

To Scubasteve and Don,

First, it is not practical to attempt to enforce a law that has no punitive measure associated with it. The present laws on flags are a cruel joke for divers.

2nd, Divers already represent a significant and legal User Group, one recognized by local and state governments, and one which already represents sizable tourism revenue for private and government interests, and already represent a "Revenue Stream" for Law enforcement, seen with Salt water fishing licenses and Crawfish stamps for lobstering. And we know how once a beuracratic entity begins a tax of a revenue stream for law enforcement, how hard they will fight to protect it.

3rd, as we could represent a huge revenue stream for enforcement of a slow zone over reef tops, Divers could be very popular as a user group, for government consideration.


Having been diving South florida for many decades, I long ago learned to come up looking 360 degrees around, and listening for boat sounds.....I also know that the real danger my buddys and I face would not be sharks, or equipment failure, it would be boats.

Dan

 

[Gary D.]

Go stick a dive flag on a real shallow reef or a nice shallow rock where you are diving. You know the ones only 1-2 feet deep. I'll bet they only go after the flag once.

Gary D.

 

[bleeb]

Go stick a dive flag on a real shallow reef or a nice shallow rock where you are diving. You know the ones only 1-2 feet deep. I'll bet they only go after the flag once.

Maybe for safety reasons, every dive flag should have a trail line attached, say 50' of floating poly. And to avoid visual polution, make it blue instead of yellow.

 

[Cave Diver]

To Scubasteve and Don,

First, it is not practical to attempt to enforce a law that has no punitive measure associated with it. The present laws on flags are a cruel joke for divers.

2nd, Divers already represent a significant and legal User Group, one recognized by local and state governments, and one which already represents sizable tourism revenue for private and government interests, and already represent a "Revenue Stream" for Law enforcement, seen with Salt water fishing licenses and Crawfish stamps for lobstering. And we know how once a beuracratic entity begins a tax of a revenue stream for law enforcement, how hard they will fight to protect it.

3rd, as we could represent a huge revenue stream for enforcement of a slow zone over reef tops, Divers could be very popular as a user group, for government consideration.


Having been diving South florida for many decades, I long ago learned to come up looking 360 degrees around, and listening for boat sounds.....I also know that the real danger my buddys and I face would not be sharks, or equipment failure, it would be boats.

Dan

Dan,

I agree that putting some teeth into the law and imposing strict enough punishments to make the boaters think twice about their actions is a good deterrent.

HOWEVER, your first and third points (IMO) are in disagreement.

There is very little difference between educating them about the laws regarding dive flags and a "no wake zone" if you will over reef tops. Either one will require that the boaters be aware of the law if it's to be effective. Awareness will come through education.

Rather than this being a subject that divides us, it needs to be one that unites us.

A two prong approach to educate boaters on the danger to divers as well as getting stricter punishments enforced when they violate the safety zone would be the best solution, again IMO.

There is a huge community of divers represented here on SB and I'm sure if we can all set our minds to a cause we can make a change.

 

[don Francisco]

I can't speak to specifics, since I don't know if there is a Florida law recognizing the red "diver down" flag or they're referring to Coast Guard rules relating to Alpha flags, but we have to consider the implications of the law.

If there's a law mandating a clear 300 foot radius around the flag, how does that affect the rights of vessels in channels less than 600 feet wide, or sailboats with limited maneuverability?

Much importantly, how big does a flag have to be. In order to protect a 300 foot diameter circle a flag must be clearly visible at well over 1,000 feet, otherwise an approaching boat won't have the time or room to execute the required maneuver. (If you don't see this, sketch a diagram and it'll be obvious)

So, if you're looking to the law and enforcement for a solution, be aware that this sword cuts both ways, and consider how big a float you're willing to tow. Also consider whether you would want laws mandating that you tow a float that size.

Consider laws regulating our roads. Despite laws to the contrary, motorists routinely hit pedestrians and cyclists, fines are rarely issued because the motorist has a simple defense - "sorry, I didn't see him until it was too late". Accidents happen, and it'll be small consolation for a diver to know that a boater was fined.

There are two ways to approach life. We can try to modify the world around us, or we can adapt to the way it is. I opt for the latter.

 

[mike_s]

The problem is that most boaters don't know boating laws, others could care less about the laws, and there is not hardly any enforcement of the laws.

Florida has to have one of the bigger problems as the don't require any boating classes or a boating drivers license to operate a boat in that state, yet they have the most boaters. This is a law that should be changed, but why it's it? because boat manufacturer associations lobby the legislative and executive branches of the state against it because they think it will detract from new boat sales.