Drinking & Diving

[Thalassamania]

You could've stopped right there ... we certainly do.

Thal, you don't need to concern yourself about me. I would never consider you a compatible dive buddy.

I dive for fun ... I don't think I'd have fun diving with you. That's all the reason I'll ever need ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Lots of people do have fun diving with me, but you are right, that is not the primary reason that most of dive ... fun is almost always a side effect, but it is not the sole focus.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't train dependent divers.

Kudos! Kudos!

I train my students to be independent divers with great situational awareness that take ownership of their own actions. Unlike current social paradigms, they take personal responsibility for their actions and decisions. I would have it no other way.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lots of people do have fun diving with me, but you are right, that is not the primary reason that most of dive ... fun is almost always a side effect, but it is not the sole focus.

Ergo, we live in different worlds.

I think trying to impose the constraints of a scientific diving program on a recreational activity is an exercise in futility ... and rather defeats the whole point of diving as a recreation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

I think trying to impose the constraints of a scientific diving program on a recreational activity is an exercise in futility

Not to mention how it would destroy the dive industry.

 

[Thalassamania]

Ergo, we live in different worlds.

I think trying to impose the constraints of a scientific diving program on a recreational activity is an exercise in futility ... and rather defeats the whole point of diving as a recreation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Not to mention how it would destroy the dive industry.

Oh, so not drinking before diving and being responsible for your team mate are exercises in futility that will destroy the dive industry?

I submit that quite the reverse is the case, the danger comes from those who thinking drinking has no effect on your hydration and that you have no more obligation to your teammate than possibly, if convenient and fun, providing yet another redundant air source.

 

[caseybird]

I had a beer at lunch today, I don't think I would want to dive 3 hours after. Overnight, 8-10 hours would be a different story. So- I would dive with Thal, Bob, Net Doc or Paladin as long as we agreed on the ground rules, like any other dive choice.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Oh, so not drinking before diving and being responsible for your team mate are exercises in futility that will destroy the dive industry?

I submit that quite the reverse is the case, the danger comes from those who thinking drinking has no effect on your hydration and that you have no more obligation to your teammate than possibly, if convenient and fun, providing yet another redundant air source.

No ... but expecting everyone who dives recreationally to take a 100-hour entry-level class, and to live by the rules you promote on this board, probably would.

It's a matter of degree ... I don't think one drink three hours before a recreational dive is going to have a significant impact ... not nearly as significant as that person's ability to manage an ascent and hold a stop.

Now, if you want to talk about someone getting drunk the night before and diving with a hangover, I'm in your camp. I just happen to see some degrees of difference between binge drinking and complete abstinence.

And to be clear, Thal ... since you're so fond of reading things into what people say that aren't there ... I do not drink alcohol on days that I dive. I occasionally manage a beer or glass of wine with dinner without imposing your "24 hour" rule on my next day of diving ... and I don't, truly, see that it has any measurable affect on my ability to manage my dive. Nor do I think it in any measureable way increases my risk of DCS. If I'm pushing my limits so close that a glass of wine with dinner affects a dive I do after a full night's sleep ... that tells me I'm diving too aggressively in the first place.

As for the buddy responsibilities ... you used the words "mutually dependent". I see a huge difference between responsibility and dependency ... and my responsibility to my dive buddy is to be a support resource in the event of an emergency. Lacking that event, my responsibility is to conduct the dive as we agreed to ... nothing more, nothing less.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

It's a matter of degree ... I don't think one drink three hours before a recreational dive is going to have a significant impact ... not nearly as significant as that person's ability to manage an ascent and hold a stop.

Now, if you want to talk about someone getting drunk the night before and diving with a hangover, I'm in your camp. I just happen to see some degrees of difference between binge drinking and complete abstinence.

I agree.

And to be clear, Thal ... since you're so fond of reading things into what people say that aren't there ...

Please, that's Pete's game ... I try to avoid it when possible, it is not always possible.

I do not drink alcohol on days that I dive. I occasionally manage a beer or glass of wine with dinner without imposing your "24 hour" rule on my next day of diving ... and I don't, truly, see that it has any measurable affect on my ability to manage my dive. Nor do I think it in any measureable way increases my risk of DCS. If I'm pushing my limits so close that a glass of wine with dinner affects a dive I do after a full night's sleep ... that tells me I'm diving too aggressively in the first place.

I agree here too, I don't think that a 24 hour rule is an optimum one, but it is the only information that I've got. I entered this discussion looking for something better ... and nothing came forward except the idea that one beer consumed three hours before a dive is not a problem. But that leads to the questions of is it a 12 oz beer, a 24 oz beer, a Fosters, etc. Absolute rules are usually absolute stupidity, but sometimes exist when there's not enough known to put some other guideline in place. As an example I advance my feelings about flying after diving, the current "rules" of which I think are designed more to limit the number of dives that resorts must offer their visitors rather than by risk dictates. Similary, in the early days of nitrox it was banned on Grand Cayman (with the agreement of the Cayman Chamber and PADI) for completely spurious reasons (e.g., the chamber crew claimed they would not know how to treat a nitrox DCS incident) but reality turned out to be that longer morning dives upset the resorts' boat and lunch schedules. Look to the money and you often find the answers.

As for the buddy responsibilities ... you used the words "mutually dependent". I see a huge difference between responsibility and dependency ... and my responsibility to my dive buddy is to be a support resource in the event of an emergency. Lacking that event, my responsibility is to conduct the dive as we agreed to ... nothing more, nothing less.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

There we dive very differently.

 

[The Chairman]

Please, that's Pete's game ... I try to avoid it when possible,.

:gans:​

You say that, and yet a few posts prior to this, you did just that. I would suggest that you are far guiltier than I am when it suits your agenda.

Oh, so not drinking before diving and being responsible for your team mate are exercises in futility that will destroy the dive industry?

 

[Thalassamania]

Hey Pete, that's your standard game so don't complain when it is reasonably used right back.

We were talking about team behavior and drinking and diving. Both are constrained with a scientific diving program.

Bob suggested that, "I think trying to impose the constraints of a scientific diving program on a recreational activity is an exercise in futility."

You added, "Not to mention how it would destroy the dive industry."

Now, we were talking about team behavior and drinking and diving, not something controversial like actually having divers who know how to dive and who are really prepared for the environment(s) that they will dive in or actually know enough about the actual risks to to reasonably provide informed consent, we were talking about drinking ... plain and simple.

Thus, reasonably and logically, I suggested that, "Oh, so not drinking before diving and being responsible for your team mate are exercises in futility that will destroy the dive industry?

I submit that quite the reverse is the case, the danger comes from those who thinking drinking has no effect on your hydration and that you have no more obligation to your teammate than possibly, if convenient and fun, providing yet another redundant air source."

Clear?