Drop the freaking weights!

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That's not his call. Once someone needs assistance, they get it. Drop his weights. If he's having trouble staying on the surface and doesn't want to drop them, then he's not thinking rationally and you can ditch them for him.

He can be pissed off at you on shore when he's still alive if he wants, but if I were there, the weights would be going down.

flots.

I fully agree that if you need to drop someone's weights to keep them afloat you do it and discuss it later.

In the example I gave, my buddy was working harder than he should, but in no imminent danger of sinking. If I had thought he was really in trouble I would have dropped his weights. I didn't really ask if he wanted the floats, I just gave them to him. The water in his drysuit was making the swim difficult but not impossible. Could he have made it back safely if he were alone or I wasn't attentive - maybe - but it was a long swim in 52F water (with essentially no thermal protection).

Maybe I should have said he was "working to stay comforablely on the surface" rather than "stuggling to stay on the surface". He might have been positive, but certainly not enough for MY comfort.

The point of the example is: even briefing how to ditch weights isn't enough. Each diver needs to think about when and where they might need ditching or some other method of removing them from the distressed diver's kit - for all members of the team not just your own. There are more ways then dropping weights to get more buoyant. In this case we started with making sure the BCD was full, then adding air to the drysuit. At that point I offered to take his weights for him since I had ample buoyancy available*. This wasn't an option my buddy had ever considered. It WILL get briefed with buddies in the future.

*Not an offer I would have made if I hadn't been carrying the lift bag and plenty of air available - no second victims!
 
Dumb? No.

Downright, effing irresponsible and potentially deadly? Yes, absolutely.

I don't agree ... any time you rent equipment you are responsible for its replacement cost if you don't return it.

What's absolutely effing irresponsible is for a diver ... ANY diver ... to think that their safety is worth less than a piece of equipment that they might have to jettison in an emergency.

You ... and ONLY you ... are responsible for your safety, and any decisions you might have to make regarding how to maintain it. If that means dropping weights, replacement cost shouldn't even enter into the decision process. If it does, then that's not the shop's fault ... it's yours ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I don't agree ... any time you rent equipment you are responsible for its replacement cost if you don't return it.

What's absolutely effing irresponsible is for a diver ... ANY diver ... to think that their safety is worth less than a piece of equipment that they might have to jettison in an emergency.

You ... and ONLY you ... are responsible for your safety, and any decisions you might have to make regarding how to maintain it. If that means dropping weights, replacement cost shouldn't even enter into the decision process. If it does, then that's not the shop's fault ... it's yours ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

While I agree with you, I think there are things that can be done to find a middle path through the tortured psychology of the diver who may potentially be in distress.

1. The company can say that if you accidentally lose the weights, you will be responsible for their replacement costs. On the other hand, if you have a genuine emergency and drop the weights for that reason, there will be no charge.

2. We instructors can talk about this situation in class. Although I admit that I have not done this in every class, I will tell students that if they ever have an emergency requiring them to drop their weights, I will reimburse them for the cost of the weights.
 
While I agree with you, I think there are things that can be done to find a middle path through the tortured psychology of the diver who may potentially be in distress.

1. The company can say that if you accidentally lose the weights, you will be responsible for their replacement costs. On the other hand, if you have a genuine emergency and drop the weights for that reason, there will be no charge.

2. We instructors can talk about this situation in class. Although I admit that I have not done this in every class, I will tell students that if they ever have an emergency requiring them to drop their weights, I will reimburse them for the cost of the weights.

1. Nice idea, and I'd applaud any shop that adopts that policy. On the other hand, not adopting it doesn't make the shop irresponsible. It's not their responsibility to make it easier for you to make rational decisions about your own safety.

2. I do talk about this situation in class. I make it clear ... from Day One of OW class ... that diving is all about making good decisions and taking responsibility for your own safety. If you have to rely on someone else to keep you safe, then diving is not for you. We always spend time in class talking about setting priorities ... and why personal safety always needs to be the first priority.

A big part of why more instructors don't talk about it is because, for the most part, they're discouraged by their business priorities from pointing out that diving can be dangerous. Too many instructors would rather tell you that it's "safer than bowling" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I don't agree ... any time you rent equipment you are responsible for its replacement cost if you don't return it.
That's rather obvious, isn't it?

What's absolutely effing irresponsible is for a diver ... ANY diver ... to think that their safety is worth less than a piece of equipment that they might have to jettison in an emergency.
How many fatalities would you guess are caused by the diver consciously thinking "my safety ain't worth the 50, 100, 200€ my weight belt / weight pockets cost"?

How many fatalities would you guess are caused by the victim not realizing they have a serious problem and thus believing they don't need to drop their weights "just yet"? Until they have a full-blown emergency on their hands, panic and don't think of, or are unable to, drop their weights?

I don't have any numbers, but I'm willing to bet that the latter number is larger than the former. Remember that I was commenting on what was said to an inexperienced and insecure diver.

You ... and ONLY you ... are responsible for your safety, and any decisions you might have to make regarding how to maintain it. If that means dropping weights, replacement cost shouldn't even enter into the decision process. If it does, then that's not the shop's fault ... it's yours ...
Ultimately, it's my own responsibility. I totally agree. My decisions are my, and only my responsibility. I can't excuse my choices by transferring any of that responsibility to someone else.

However, I don't think responsibility is a zero-sum game. If I lost a friend in a diving accident, he was found on the bottom still wearing his belt and the last thing I had told that friend was "Remember, if you drop those weights, you'll have to pay for them", I'd feel pretty miserable and there wouldn't be anything you could have said to convince me I didn't bear a part of the responsibility for his death.

The reluctance to drop weights has - AFAIK - caused fatalities and near-fatalities in the past, which is why any member of a club affiliated with the Norwegian Diving Association will get their weights refunded if they choose to drop them. No questions asked. And if our diving association believes that that can reduce the number of diving fatalities, I believe that anything that makes a diver - particularly an inexperienced one - more reluctant to drop weights does the opposite, i.e. increases the risk of a fatality.

Just IMNSHO, of course...
 
thank you for this thread! despite all the bickering, there is some good info buried in here I think. I just purchased my first weight pouches (for my BP&W setup) and I chose the quick release ones partly because of this thread.
I will say though, reading through 13 pages of "I'm right, your wrong" is ridiculous and takes away from the message the OP was conveying.
 
How many fatalities would you guess are caused by the diver consciously thinking "my safety ain't worth the 50, 100, 200€ my weight belt / weight pockets cost"?

How many fatalities would you guess are caused by the victim not realizing they have a serious problem and thus believing they don't need to drop their weights "just yet"? Until they have a full-blown emergency on their hands, panic and don't think of, or are unable to, drop their weights?

I don't have any numbers, but I'm willing to bet that the latter number is larger than the former. Remember that I was commenting on what was said to an inexperienced and insecure diver.
... and I'd be willing to bet that anyone who makes decisions that poor are not adequately trained to begin with. And the problem goes way beyond the concept of when to drop lead and to the fundamental aspect of where your priorities are ... because these are divers who are capable of making a wide range of bad decisions based on an inadequate comprehension of the risks they face underwater.

Rather than putting the onus onto the person who rented them the gear and told them they are responsible for returning it or paying for it ... what say we begin, from Day One, emphasizing to these new divers that the backbone of safe, responsible diving is making good decisions and taking responsibility for your own safety. Let's emphasize that, as dive equipment goes, weights are cheap ... and dropped weights are usually recoverable anyway. So don't hesitate if you think you need to get rid of them.

It doesn't matter how experienced or inexperienced you are ... if you're incapable of understanding that lead is less important than life, then you shouldn't have been certified in the first place. Diver training needs to go beyond a checklist of "skills" and an emphasis on how safe and fun scuba diving is. We also need to focus on the importance of good decision-making and personal responsibility. When the training doesn't do that, it creates a whole class of dependent divers who are a danger not just to themselves, but to everyone around them. We need to address the source of the problem ... which is a serious need for an attitude adjustment ... rather than simply making it easier for them to do the right thing. Because there's a whole raft of other things that can go wrong that will come up on the short end of safe decision-making if that person doesn't get their priorities in order.

Ultimately, it's my own responsibility. I totally agree. My decisions are my, and only my responsibility. I can't excuse my choices by transferring any of that responsibility to someone else.
... then why call a business decision by a company that rents equipment irresponsible? All they're doing is protecting their own investment.

However, I don't think responsibility is a zero-sum game. If I lost a friend in a diving accident, he was found on the bottom still wearing his belt and the last thing I had told that friend was "Remember, if you drop those weights, you'll have to pay for them", I'd feel pretty miserable and there wouldn't be anything you could have said to convince me I didn't bear a part of the responsibility for his death.
How are you responsible? If your friend couldn't accept responsibility for his life over the loss of a piece of equipment, he shouldn't have been diving in the first place. It was completely his decision to decide that this piece of gear was worth more than his personal safety.

What if he owned the weights, rather than renting them? Should he have an expectation that someone else will buy him a new one? Who, I wonder ... Santa Claus?

The reluctance to drop weights has - AFAIK - caused fatalities and near-fatalities in the past, which is why any member of a club affiliated with the Norwegian Diving Association will get their weights refunded if they choose to drop them. No questions asked. And if our diving association believes that that can reduce the number of diving fatalities, I believe that anything that makes a diver - particularly an inexperienced one - more reluctant to drop weights does the opposite, i.e. increases the risk of a fatality.

Just IMNSHO, of course...

It's great that your dive club has that policy ... many dive shops in my local area do too. And I applaud them. But it's not their responsibility to do that.

And it doesn't address the real problem ... which is certifying divers without giving them a straight education on the very real dangers of diving and the approach they need to take to making good decisions in order to keep themselves out of trouble. A great deal of this lies at the fallacy that diving is "safer than bowling" ... giving many divers, newer ones in particular, a false sense of security. More emphasis needs to be placed on the very real dangers, and what each and every one of us who dives needs to do to deal with them. Emphasis should be placed ... from Day One ... on the notion that a reluctance to drop weights is a bad decision ... and bad decisions can get you killed quick underwater. Dive gear is replaceable ... and in most cases, it's recoverable. Hesitating to jettison weights out of a concern for cost is making a foolish decision ... and underwater, foolish decisions can kill you quick. So don't make them.

And yes ... I do use exactly that language with my OW students. I'm not trying to scare them, but I won't sugar-coat the reality either. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be in the class ... because the last thing I or any other instructor wants is to read about one of our former students getting killed because they did something dumb.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I don't agree ... any time you rent equipment you are responsible for its replacement cost if you don't return it.

What's absolutely effing irresponsible is for a diver ... ANY diver ... to think that their safety is worth less than a piece of equipment that they might have to jettison in an emergency.

You ... and ONLY you ... are responsible for your safety, and any decisions you might have to make regarding how to maintain it. If that means dropping weights, replacement cost shouldn't even enter into the decision process. If it does, then that's not the shop's fault ... it's yours ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The dive shops never warned me that if I lost their face mask, or their BCD, or their air tank, or their regulator, or their wet suit, or their flippers, or their snorkel, that I would be responsible for paying for the loss. They only warned me about the weights. Whats the point. Its common sense if you damage or lose rental equipment your responsible. Why create a tiny amount of doubt or hesitation in anyones mind?
 
The dive shops never warned me that if I lost their face mask, or their BCD, or their air tank, or their regulator, or their wet suit, or their flippers, or their snorkel, that I would be responsible for paying for the loss. They only warned me about the weights. Whats the point. Its common sense if you damage or lose rental equipment your responsible. Why create a tiny amount of doubt or hesitation in anyones mind?




not that im on one side or the other but a typical student really doesn't know what's a panic situation and they bolt at the first sign off perceived danger, bolting creates all sorts of problems for instructors and instead of training them properly in a pool first they overweight them and of course do whatever they can to keep them down





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920
 
I think that a company could say to the customer... hey if you have to ditch lead,,, do it!

We only charge the customers "our cost" on any lead.... I think something like this might be unusual enough to catch their attention or imagination and at least give them 20 seconds of a mental rehearsal of themselves ditching the lead on their first "vacation" dive in 8 months or something. It may serve as a mildly stimulating reminder to the inept diver to "ditch the freaking weight".
 

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