Emergency swimming ascent 33ft depth limitation?

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i am no expert but one thing that has not been mentioned here, that i seem to have heard something about is that O2 is exchanged most effectively when air is moving in the lungs. (i am not 100% sure about this) but if this is true then during a cesa extra air is leaving the lungs, but the air that is in the lungs is not moving around that much to facilitate the transfer of O2 and CO2 in and out of the blood stream. also at pressure the lungs are not quite as efficient as at 1ata. combine these things plus the physical stress of having to do an extra long assent and it could lead to possible complications that might show symptoms like blacking out
 
REALLY!!! :wink:

Peace,
Greg
If you are not inhaling, the percentage of CO2 in your system will surely increase but if you are ascending at anything more than a nudibranch's pace, your ppCO2 really has to be decreasing, right?
 
FWIW, my comfortable limit for a CESA is 100'. I know lots of other old farts who've practiced them from that depth in the not too distant past, too. (the SSI training limit, by the way, is now 40'... don't know about PADI)
I've never, ever heard of anyone suffering a shallow water blackout while doing a CESA. In fact, I've never heard of a 'casual' free diver (total underwater time less than about 90 seconds) suffering one either. To get an oxygen titre low enough to cause blackout I'd think you'd have to have trained yourself to ride the CO2 induced urge well past when most of us would just have to take a breath.
E
 
If you are not inhaling, the percentage of CO2 in your system will surely increase but if you are ascending at anything more than a nudibranch's pace, your ppCO2 really has to be decreasing, right?

I suppose if you managed to get super bouyant on your ascent and didn't have to work much after 10-15 feet then then your ppCO2 could remain steady or drop even as your fCO2 rises, but your fCO2 is going to rise pretty quickly because you are exhaling clean air as you ascend to prevent embolism. That, in my mind, would be reason for ppCO2 going up.

Peace,
Greg
 
i am no expert but one thing that has not been mentioned here, that i seem to have heard something about is that O2 is exchanged most effectively when air is moving in the lungs. (i am not 100% sure about this) but if this is true then during a cesa extra air is leaving the lungs, but the air that is in the lungs is not moving around that much to facilitate the transfer of O2 and CO2 in and out of the blood stream. also at pressure the lungs are not quite as efficient as at 1ata. combine these things plus the physical stress of having to do an extra long assent and it could lead to possible complications that might show symptoms like blacking out

One reason why everyone is confused is because we are talking about several different processes here.

Ambient pressures and partial gas pressures matter only when one is breathing. It matters then because these factors determine what is available IN the lungs to exchange with the blood. If one is not breathing, then what gets absorbed into the blood depends upon what was available in the lungs when the last breath was taken.

Usable oxygen is transferred from the alveoli to hemoglobin in the pulmonary capillaries. Oxygen is then carried to other tissues where the hemoglobin unloads the oxygen, making it available for use by other cells. Breathing higher concentrations or higher pressures of oxygen does not necessarily provide more oxygen for the body because hemoglobin can only hold so much, and in a normal person, it is almost completely saturated all the time anyway. The oxygen that is NOT bound to hemoglobin, and which is simply dissolved in the blood itself, is not really usable, (although it can become toxic).

If one is NOT breathing, then the oxygen in the alveoli eventually gets used up -- or, at least, all that can be exchanged without breathing gets exchanged.

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is different. CO2 is not dependent upon hemoglobin. It's handling is a bit complicated and is controlled by the breathing rate and by the kidneys. If we assume that the kidneys are working right, then the simple way to think of it is that if you are breathing, then you are eliminating CO2. If you are not, then it is accumulating in the body. Once it reaches a certain point, an irresistible urge to breathe occurs. Normally, it is the CO2 level that controls the breathing rate.

Shallow water blackout occurs when a person intentionally lowers his CO2 levels through hyperventilation so that the urge to breathe is decreased. If his brain runs out of oxygen before he gets the urge to breathe, then he passes out and drowns.

A CESA is different. For one thing, the normal diver has not intentionally hyperventilated to artificially lower CO2 levels. Second, the scuba diver has been breathing at depth, so he has more oxygen molecules available for exchange. And even though the pressures in the lungs are changing during the ascent, those changes do not affect the oxygen that is attached to hemoglobin which, in turn, is still carrying oxygen to the other tissues.

In short, comparing CESA to free diving is apples and oranges.
 
I suppose if you managed to get super bouyant on your ascent and didn't have to work much after 10-15 feet then then your ppCO2 could remain steady or drop even as your fCO2 rises, but your fCO2 is going to rise pretty quickly because you are exhaling clean air as you ascend to prevent embolism. That, in my mind, would be reason for ppCO2 going up.

Peace,
Greg

You lost me at fCO2. I had to look it up just to see that it was fugacity, then my head really started spinning. :D

I could be wrong, as I often am, but I would have thought that CO2 is also subject to Dalton's Law. If you assume that the amount of CO2 in blood returning to the heart is 6% just before the last breath, let's say at 66 feet, then the ppCO2 there is 0.18. For that to "REALLY rise fast" as you surface, you would end up with a ppCO2 well in excess of 0.18 at 1 atmosphere. Is it possible to get that high?

Peace,
Michael
 
fCO2 is the fraction of CO2, and is not pressure-dependent as it is an absolute measurement. The fO2 of air is 21%, always, even though the ppO2 will fluctuate with changes in absolute pressure (depth).

I don't know if it could get quite as high as 0.18 at one atmosphere (which would make the content of the gas in your lungs 18% Co2, 3% O2, and the rest Nitrogen assuming you are breathing air at depth) but just a little CO2 can have a debilitating effect on the body. Wikipedia lists the approximate percentages where CO2 effects the body, and I reasonably believe that a fCO2 of around 10% combined with a corresponding fO2 of 12% is very possible. It's not just fO2 or fCO2 that causes issues with an ascent from a breath-hold dive, it's the effect of both in amounts that the body isn't used to dealing with that causes problems.

Peace,
Greg

You lost me at fCO2. I had to look it up just to see that it was fugacity, then my head really started spinning. :D

I could be wrong, as I often am, but I would have thought that CO2 is also subject to Dalton's Law. If you assume that the amount of CO2 in blood returning to the heart is 6% just before the last breath, let's say at 66 feet, then the ppCO2 there is 0.18. For that to "REALLY rise fast" as you surface, you would end up with a ppCO2 well in excess of 0.18 at 1 atmosphere. Is it possible to get that high?

Peace,
Michael
 
The reason CESA from below 33 feet is much more difficult now than back a couple of decades is that today's scuba divers are not taught the difference between a) maintaining an open airway and letting excess expanding air bubble out, and b) continuously exhaling.
 
Interesting discussion. However, should someone new to diving be concerned about this? I mean, is it really a common problem? From these discussions, my sense is, no.

:idk:
 

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