Extinguishing the impulse to bolt

[boulderjohn]

We were in a quarry vis was not very good and I was slightly over-weighted. I can't seem to descend at all in my 7/7 farmer john unless I'm a little over-weighted, ..

You said this could be a topic for another thread, but I will get into it a little in this thread.

First of all, when you dive in a 7/7 farmer john, you will be overweighted while at depth--there is absolutely no way to avoid it. You need a lot of weight to sink the suit, and it will compress mightily at depth, leaving you overweighted. As you begin to ascend, it will uncompress rapidly in the shallower depth. It is not just the suit compression, either. Because you have no choice but to be overweighted at depth, you must have a large amount of air in your BCD to compensate. Until you are relatively deep, this will air react quickly to changing depth. This combination can send you to depths in a rapid, uncontrolled descent, or it can shoot you to the surface like the submarines in Hunt for Red October. (That is one of the reasons many people who dive in such conditions prefer dry suits, since they provide a more constant buoyancy.) If you are not ready for it, you feel helpless in such a situation, and a feeling of helplessness breeds panic.

Next, one of the most important and underrated skills you gain with diving experience (no other way!) is learning how much air to add or remove from the BCD when changing depth affects buoyancy. I did a lot of diving in 3 mm suits in warm water, and I did a lot of diving in pools, and I got so I could hit the right amount almost perfectly any time I wanted to. I next went to the same sort of 7/7 2-piece you describe, and I could not believe how much harder it was to use. Then I started diving in a dry suit and steel doubles, and I had to start learning all over again. My tendency was to overdo it every time, always dropping more air than I needed to or adding more air than I needed to. I had enough experience at that time to marvel at how long it was taking me to get the hang of it.

My advice to you then, is to do some 7/7 diving for the sole purpose of learning to control the buoyancy. Go to different depths and change depths while there. Play with both your lungs and your inflator hose until you feel comfortable. Lose that feeling of helplessness, and you will lose the tendency to panic.

 

[Elonna]

Yes I have seen this with the 7/7. The first time I wore it, when we were coming out of depth I hit a certain level...about 15' with about 600-700PSI and popped to the surface uncontrolled. So I do realize I have to let air out of my BCD as I ascend especially with an empty tank. With my incident I listed above, I thought I had enough air in my bcd since we had been swimming along ok for a few minutes, it was when I went vertical that I started to sink, so I hadn't realized that position also adds/detracts from your buoyancy. But I agree when you say overcoming the helpless feeling will overcome the panic.

I don't know if I will ever be able to go drysuit though. The reason I went to the 2 pc is so I could loosen the zipper at the neck. My one-piece suit makes me feel like I'm suffocating, more so in the cold water. Same problem with the hood being around my neck as I mentioned. I don't like things around my neck constricting like that so I'm not sure I could deal with the neck seal...didn't even know I had that issue until I started diving.

You said this could be a topic for another thread, but I will get into it a little in this thread.

First of all, when you dive in a 7/7 farmer john, you will be overweighted while at depth--there is absolutely no way to avoid it. You need a lot of weight to sink the suit, and it will compress mightily at depth, leaving you overweighted. As you begin to ascend, it will uncompress rapidly in the shallower depth. It is not just the suit compression, either. Because you have no choice but to be overweighted at depth, you must have a large amount of air in your BCD to compensate. Until you are relatively deep, this will air react quickly to changing depth. This combination can send you to depths in a rapid, uncontrolled descent, or it can shoot you to the surface like the submarines in Hunt for Red October. (That is one of the reasons many people who dive in such conditions prefer dry suits, since they provide a more constant buoyancy.) If you are not ready for it, you feel helpless in such a situation, and a feeling of helplessness breeds panic.

Next, one of the most important and underrated skills you gain with diving experience (no other way!) is learning how much air to add or remove from the BCD when changing depth affects buoyancy. I did a lot of diving in 3 mm suits in warm water, and I did a lot of diving in pools, and I got so I could hit the right amount almost perfectly any time I wanted to. I next went to the same sort of 7/7 2-piece you describe, and I could not believe how much harder it was to use. Then I started diving in a dry suit and steel doubles, and I had to start learning all over again. My tendency was to overdo it every time, always dropping more air than I needed to or adding more air than I needed to. I had enough experience at that time to marvel at how long it was taking me to get the hang of it.

My advice to you then, is to do some 7/7 diving for the sole purpose of learning to control the buoyancy. Go to different depths and change depths while there. Play with both your lungs and your inflator hose until you feel comfortable. Lose that feeling of helplessness, and you will lose the tendency to panic.

 

[Airleron]

My husband has recently developed something similar. We've been diving since 1986, heavily in the past few years.

Last year, we were doing a wreck dive with wicked, wicked current. The group did a negative entry. I made it down to the wreck OK and was holding on for dear life when I looked up for my husband who was right above me. He was signalling to ascend. I could not see his thumbs up hand signals (black gloves against his black wetsuit), but after a few seconds, got the message and we made a controlled ascent. When we got back on the boat, he mentioned that he could not get enough air thru his reg. We relaxed for a few minutes, and he insisted we try again, and the boat dropped us back on the wreck. It was a succcessful dive.

I thought it was his reg, and since that incident, he's purchased a new one. He mentioned to me just recently that since that day on the wreck, he has a "mini panic attack" every time he stands to line up and jumps from the boat and floats on the surface waiting to descend. He's fine as soon as he reaches depth and there after. It does not happen when waiting on the surface to be picked up. The new reg didn't change anything. I am amazed that this is happening to him because I never knew it.

My husband is wearing a sling now (broken clavicle and no diving for us for a while) and mentioned that he had that same feeling coming on. He could not figure out why, but finally it dawned on both of us. Any restriction around his chest/lower neck area would trigger it. The sling, the BP/W strap, etc. The weird thing is his wetsuit doesn't trigger it. He even wears a hooded vest and nothing. I guess when he descends to depth, the bouyancy of the wing takes the pressure off his shoulders, thus the panic subsides.

The mind is a powerful thing. It shocks me that it's happening to him, because he's been a waterboy his entire life. Surfing, diving, swimming, etc. He's now 55 so maybe age is a factor in his case.

 

[BabyDuck]

that's really interesting, and a good discovery.

i had a similar thing happen - i felt a bit panicky at a certain spot in a cave. i figured out after a while that since it was very vertical, i was breathing much faster than my norm and fooled myself into thinking i was scared. now i take that spot really slow, and no worries.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yes I have seen this with the 7/7. The first time I wore it, when we were coming out of depth I hit a certain level...about 15' with about 600-700PSI and popped to the surface uncontrolled. So I do realize I have to let air out of my BCD as I ascend especially with an empty tank. With my incident I listed above, I thought I had enough air in my bcd since we had been swimming along ok for a few minutes, it was when I went vertical that I started to sink, so I hadn't realized that position also adds/detracts from your buoyancy. But I agree when you say overcoming the helpless feeling will overcome the panic.

.

The bolded comments are not correct. You position in the water column does not affect your bouyancy. At least to any appreciable extent.


What I suspect was happening from the decription is that you were over-weighted at depth (or not enough air in BC is probably more correct)... anyway, when you are negatively bouyant and swimming you are planning through the water which holds you up and you are most likely not horizontal, so your kicking is performing two funtions (vectors really for math geeks). The kicking is moving you forward, but when your feet are tillted down, kicking also tends to lift you toward the surface and counter acts the negative bouyancy.

So, it is likely that you are swimming along thinking your bouyancy is fine, but when you stop kicking, your feet sink down, your head tips up and if you stop kicking, you immediately begin to fall. Plus if you are in a vertical position, you will fall faster than if you are planned out laying horizontal (more or less) in the water.

I see something like this commonly when riding a scooter. The scooter is strong and is pulling you along and you are planned out, but you can't really tell if you are neutral or not. I need to let go of the scooter throttle, relax for a moment and then see if I am sinking or not. It is more efficient if you have your bouyancy adjusted just right, even when a scooter is doing almost all the work.

 

[Elonna]

I see, thanks

 

[jaybob217]

This is all very interesting to me. My wife and I have been diving for for only a few years and got our OW cert in St. Croix. We (I) have 25 open water dives.

The first time I ever panicked was during the mask removal exercise in about 30 feet in St. Croix. I freaked out but just kept telling myself... "Hey, you have air, it's right here. Just keep breathing."

It made me mad more than anything. As a result, before we go on a dive trip I like to visit the LDS pool and practice. However, I have had severe post nasal drip for years and last year I had what is called a Laryngospasm while at work - no where near the water. This is where your throat basically closes up for a few LONG seconds and you can't breath. No one has ever died from it but it sure feels like it. So I have this in the back of my mind now... that I can have these "episodes." A few months later we go to Coz on a dive trip and during a descent on our last day I had to invert to get down due to too much wetsuit and not enough weight. I know, poor planning. I got some water in my reg and started choking and went back up. I ended up descending and finishing dive but again this "panic" thing is in the back of my mind. I attributed it to poor rental gear as the breathing from that reg just seemed labored. Again, I really don't think the gear is the issue so much as the mind.

Our next dive trip was 6 months later in Cancun. A boat dive. Oh, and I also discovered since diving I get sea sick. Great!! Spent my entire life on boats and never get sea sick until I start diving. I'm 40 years old so not sure if age has anything to do with it. Anyway, on our second dive I get really cold and start breathing heavy. My throat is dry and I start thinking I'm having trouble breathing and all I can think about is bolting to the surface but also know I'll just have to sit up there among dozens of boats buzzing around and feel sick and panicky. My wife is always close by so having a buddy and alternate air is never the issue. It's a mind thing.

I finally was so cold and miserable, anxious about breathing, holding my reg in my mouth with my hand that I convinced everyone I was cold and to cut the dive short. I was cold, but I also just wanted to get out of the darn ocean. I remember telling my wife when we got back on the boat and before I started vomiting (the sea was SO freaking rough that day) that "I'm not sure I can do this anymore."

The feeling to bolt to the surface can be so overwhelming and I've never experienced anything like it. It ticks me off really. I can normally get out of that by focusing on how beautiful the ocean is and just breath slow and get my mind off my throat and start looking around and get back into the surroundings. We haven't dove since that trip but will again this spring I'm sure. I plan on staying away from boat dives for a while and just concentrating on hitting the local pool, getting an operation to fix my deviated septum and hopefully help with some of the post nasal drip (also might be a little of a "mental" thing with the operation).

It makes me angry that I have this little panic attacks. I always thought people were just weak or couldn't handle it mentally. I recently discovered that my father has little panic attacks also sometimes that he can't breath. I'm thinking... great. I realize now how real and debilitating these can be. And not safe when you're diving!

I've had experienced divers tell me they have them sometimes too, which helps a little, and not to be so hard on myself. I do want to purchase my own regulator as we area always renting regs and they all breathe differently adding to the anxiety issue.

I do think practice, training, and just experience may help me with this, but think I'll stick with shore dives for a while. My wife and I shore dove for a week in Curacao and loved the pace, relaxed decent, slow pace, not rushed by other divers current, boats all over the place, etc.

I enjoyed reading other peoples experiences here and hope I can get over this.

 

[String]

Id say the complete opposite to "team" mentality and tell someone to ALWAYS dive with the equipment and skills to get themselves out of trouble. If someone is completely confident in their own gear and skills to get themselves out of trouble and doesnt have to rely on someone else they're far more likely to fix a problem.

A lot of it is repetition and confidence. IF you do something once or twice you arent that comfortable with it. If you do something 200 times it becomes instinctive and you no longer think about even performing the skill. Skills pulled on someone unexpectedly over a series of dives helps a lot with this.

If they're bolting its because they're uncomfortable with the skill and scenario. To fix that they need repeated exposure to that stressor combined with proper training until it no longer becomes an issue.

However, its also worth remembering that diving is not for everything. A small number of people will NEVER be calm or comfortable in the water and these people need to be told that for their own safety, diving isn't for them.

 

[boulderjohn]

However, I have had severe post nasal drip for years and last year I had what is called a Laryngospasm while at work - no where near the water. This is where your throat basically closes up for a few LONG seconds and you can't breath....

I attributed it to poor rental gear as the breathing from that reg just seemed labored. ...

Anyway, on our second dive I get really cold and start breathing heavy. My throat is dry and I start thinking I'm having trouble breathing a...

I finally was so cold and miserable, anxious about breathing, ...

... getting an operation to fix my deviated septum and hopefully help with some of the post nasal drip ...

I recently discovered that my father has little panic attacks also sometimes that he can't breath. I'm thinking... great. I realize now how real and debilitating these can be.

OK, look at the parts I quoted and see if you can find anything they have in common.

Panic has a physiological basis as well as a mental basis. Your body has no real signal that it needs oxygen, but it has a very real signal that it has too much CO2. That is why you start getting panicky after you have been holding your breath for a while.

One of the ways of dealing with panic is something called diaphragmatic breathing, in which you take long, slow, deep breaths, using your diaphragm (think stomach) as the initiator of the breathing. You need to focus especially on exhaling so that you get rid of the CO2.

When you are anxious or concerned about something, it frequently affects your breathing patterns. You tend to take shallow breaths without taking the time to exhale properly. CO2 builds up, triggering the panic cycle. As panic starts, your breathing gets worse, CO2 builds up more, and the panic elevates. Eventually it is unendurable.

I recently had an OW student who said he had had some mild anxiety when snorkeling, so I talked about this. He seemed to be OK in the first confined water dive in shallow water. He was excited and happy. When we went to the deep end of the pool, he had trouble equalizing his ears. this is a common problem, and I went close to him to try to help. He was concentrating hard on getting his ears cleared. Suddenly he went into full blown panic, threw the regulator out of his mouth, and started to bolt to the surface, which was still only a few feet away. Since I was right next to him, I was able to control him.

When we talked about it, he had no memory of what had actually happened. He was surprised to learn he had discarded his regulator. He revealed something he had not told me before--he had a history of such panic attacks, even when nowhere near the water. He had not revealed it because of his embarrassment.

When we talked about it, I pointed out that his discarding of the regulator was a key to what had happened. His regulator had nothing to do with clearing his ears. Discarding the regulator is an almost certain sign that CO2 has built up, for it creates the illusion that the regulator is not working properly. His discarding of the regulator suggested to me that as he had concentrated on clearing his ears, he had stopped breathing. When he stopped breathing, CO2 built up, and it triggered a panic. I asked him if he had a tendency to stop breathing when he concentrated on difficult problems, and it was like a revelation to him. Yes, he did!

When he returned to complete his instruction, he focused on making sure he kept breathing, and especially EXHALING. He was perfectly fine and completed his certification without any issues.

 

[String]

Its a valid point, in diving Carbon Dioxide is NEVER EVER your friend.

Narcosis increase, headaches, inefficient offgassing, increase sensitivity to Oxygen toxicity. Its evil stuff.