Fail! Weekend Certify-

[GI0Ria]

The way most shops do things, tanks and fills at the shop for your pool sessions and first day's OW dives are included in the class fee, but _you_ pay to refill your tanks in Monterey, currently $6 at Aquarius II for a 3000 PSI or less fill ($4.80/fill with a 10 fill card, but a student doesn't need that unless they know they'll be diving in Monterey regularly). Most shops outside the Monterey area charge less for a fill, at least if you've got a fill card.

As to saving him money, I doubt it. He could just as easily have done like every other shop I know of does, as described above. Shops rarely make money on fills; it's a loss leader for them. It's the stuff you buy while you're in the shop getting your fills that keeps them in business. And then there's the whole need for the shop to buy/maintain and keep track of that many extra tanks, which get far more abuse by students than personally-owned tanks usually do.

So, while I think your shop's policy is awkward for many people (and their cars), I don't think they're doing it to save themselves money. It's just too much unnecessary hassle. I am somewhat surprised that 6 tanks was bottoming out your suspension, assuming these were Aluminum 80s. They weigh ~38 lb. ea. when full, so six of them would be about 230 lb. Now, if you put all the rest of your gear in the cargo area with them, instead of the back seat, I could understand it.

Guy

If air is NOT included they shouldnt state AIR INCLUDED once during the description of the course and at the bottom of their page IN BOLD CAPS AIR INCLUDED, they should state there is a charge because, when I purchased my course he stated as well the reciept. EVERYTHING included PAID IN FULL..
Now what would make me think I should be responsible for some 'oh your stupid they always charge at Monterey for air' ........fees?

I most definitely am not responsible for anything I didn't sign my name to.

Paid in full- means paid in full doesnt it? Is that code for wait you owe more?

 

[Peter_C]

That was me (it's not that hard to find this in the NorCal forum). Just to clarify, I'm still a DM candidate doing my internship work. Just doing some butt-covering here...

The key thing we did on Sunday was to sit and evaluate conditions, make a plan, and then execute that plan. We changed our entry plan (location/method) based on the state of the surf zone to minimize the amount of wave action we had to deal with. We only had 2 students, which left us 1:1 coverage between myself and the instructor. We did a thorough briefing on how we were going to enter and exit BEFORE walking down the beach. The students were both young, in good physical shape, and we had a good idea of their comfort-level from the day before.

Thanks for posting up Hepcat62, the DM candidate :cool2:

Sounds like you guys had your act together and were keeping your students safe in adverse conditions, and your students were in agreement with the dive plan. That is how it should be in those conditions at the least.

 

[Guy Alcala]

If air is NOT included they shouldnt state AIR INCLUDED once during the description of the course and at the bottom of their page IN BOLD CAPS AIR INCLUDED, they should state there is a charge because, when I purchased my course he stated as well the reciept. EVERYTHING included PAID IN FULL..
Now what would make me think I should be responsible for some 'oh your stupid they always charge at Monterey for air' ........fees?

I most definitely am not responsible for anything I didn't sign my name to.

Paid in full- means paid in full doesnt it? Is that code for wait you owe more?

You miss my point. He is including all your air for the class, the price you pay for that is needing to haul 3 tanks per person to/from Monterey. I was suggesting that it makes more sense to do it the way all the other shops I know do, give you two full tanks, decrease the class fee pro-rata and tell you that you have to pay for your refills in Monterey. Alternatively, with two tanks the instructor could include the cost of Monterey refills in the class, but then they've got to make sure all the students schlep their tanks to the shop at the same time at the end of the first day, so he can pay. That jams up the fill station so everyone has to stand around, and is inconvenient for the students, some of whom will wish to deal with their gear in a different order or at a different speed.

So, as far as the air went, you got what you paid for, although the method seems inefficient to me (and more expensive for the dive shop). If you were doing your OW checkout somewhere where there wasn't any place to get a fill, then the 3 tank method would make more sense. That's not an issue in Monterey, although it is at some spots along the North Coast, and if your shop sometimes does checkouts in that area that might explain why they did it that way.

Guy

 

[BettyRubble]

During my classwork/pool sessions, I realized quickly I was not comfortable doing my OW dives with the outfit I had signed up with. I found a dive shop I was more comfortable with. The original shop had a FIT. Absolute FIT. Lectured me and at first made it seem like they wouldn't give me my papers so I could prove I'd done the classwork. Needless to say I stood my ground, got my papers and cert'd with another outfit, but I have never done business with the original shop again.

If I had known then what I know now about the differences in style, personalized attention, and length of classes, I would have approached my certification much much differently.

Threads like this help newbies. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Guy Alcala]

That was me (it's not that hard to find this in the NorCal forum). Just to clarify, I'm still a DM candidate doing my internship work. Just doing some butt-covering here...

The key thing we did on Sunday was to sit and evaluate conditions, make a plan, and then execute that plan. We changed our entry plan (location/method) based on the state of the surf zone to minimize the amount of wave action we had to deal with. We only had 2 students, which left us 1:1 coverage between myself and the instructor. We did a thorough briefing on how we were going to enter and exit BEFORE walking down the beach. The students were both young, in good physical shape, and we had a good idea of their comfort-level from the day before. We stayed close to the students throughout the day, to ensure that there were no accidental separations. Intentional separations would've been foolhardy, to say the least. While conditions were certainly not ideal, I stand by my group's decision-making and feel that we executed a safe, controlled dive that was appropriate for the conditions and our students. If they had been less comfortable/capable by our estimation, we would have called the dive day.

From your description it sounds like your group was diving nearer to the breakwater wall (the plan we rejected), was bigger (implying less coverage), and didn't have as clear of a plan that accounted for everybody's comfort level. Assuming I trust your account, I can only say that that's most unfortunate. I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the story, but it doesn't change the fact that I sympathize with what you went through, and that I'm sorry your first Monterey diving experience wasn't a more positive one.
<snip>

Thanks for posting up Hepcat62, the DM candidate :cool2:

Sounds like you guys had your act together and were keeping your students safe in adverse conditions, and your students were in agreement with the dive plan. That is how it should be in those conditions at the least.

+1. Given the student/intructor ratio you had, the students' age, condition and comfort in the water, and the other steps you took to make sure this was a reasonable dive _for them_, I think your decision to go ahead can be justified. I can't say the same for the other class.

Guy

 

[GI0Ria]

You miss my point. He is including all your air for the class, the price you pay for that is needing to haul 3 tanks per person to/from Monterey. I was suggesting that it makes more sense to do it the way all the other shops I know do, give you two full tanks, decrease the class fee pro-rata and tell you that you have to pay for your refills in Monterey. Alternatively, with two tanks the instructor could include the cost of Monterey refills in the class, but then they've got to make sure all the students schlep their tanks to the shop at the same time at the end of the first day, so he can pay. That jams up the fill station so everyone has to stand around, and is inconvenient for the students, some of whom will wish to deal with their gear in a different order or at a different speed.

So, as far as the air went, you got what you paid for, although the method seems inefficient to me (and more expensive for the dive shop). If you were doing your OW checkout somewhere where there wasn't any place to get a fill, then the 3 tank method would make more sense. That's not an issue in Monterey, although it is at some spots along the North Coast, and if your shop sometimes does checkouts in that area that might explain why they did it that way.

Guy

I understand what you're saying.

I'm not sure you realize there were 3 dives a day, a total of 6 dives. 2 people 12 dives get that?

MY point is regardless of what the cost is, it is the cost you sign up for in the beginning. If they need to raise their prices to fix some issue they should do that, hidden costs are not an option-
You don't bait people in with one price, then add on as you go, when EVERYTHING INCLUDED---
Also he stated he was discounting me 100 dollars for doing the online course work already- NOT
I went online and that was the regular class prices, and it's written big on his store windows, price I paid.
When you have been receiving statements with paid in full and told everything is included it should be included! Even the receipt I left with for the trip package said PAID IN FULL.


This is not the main issue it was just YET ANOTHER UNDERLYING issue I dealth with. The main issues was safety in the water. Feeling safe- being mislead about not being pressured or pushed, those are more the main issues I would imagine.

 

[TSandM]

Honestly, I can't imagine the headaches of running OW classes from a shop in Sacramento, with OW dives in Monterey. That's a LONG way for people to drive, and you add lodging and meals to the cost, and then you have the unpredictable winter weather. But aren't the swell forecasts available well ahead of time? I know my Monterey friends have been fussing and sulking over the predictions, and scrubbing dives. It seems as though a shop would have the option to do that -- but maybe they hope against hope that it will be better that the forecast says. I'd sure be bent majorly out of shape if I drove all the way from Sacramento to Monterey and the instructor turned around and said, "Nope, not diving today -- let's see if we can reschedule this in a few weeks . . . "

With regards to the value of Monterey diving: I've dived in a lot of places around the world, and Monterey remains in my top five places to go. Admittedly, the Breakwater is not the most exciting diving that Monterey offers, but there is a lot of life in the water there if you go slowly. I wouldn't recommend the OP give up and do a referral to someplace warm, but I'd recommend working with a shop with a stronger emphasis on safety.

GIOria, I'll tell you why you had an 80 cubic foot tank. The shop I'm a DMC for uses 75 cubic foot tanks, and it's not that unusual for a student to blow through the entire thing in a 20 minute OW dive (which is the minimum that counts as a dive for us). Peter had to take a student to the surface the other day two-thirds of the way through the tour, because he was low on gas. If you put people in smaller tanks, you'd never get the minimum amount of skills and tour time that's required.

An Al80 is an adequate tank for a good, shallow dive for many of us, but not for very many new divers!

 

[GI0Ria]

During my classwork/pool sessions, I realized quickly I was not comfortable doing my OW dives with the outfit I had signed up with. I found a dive shop I was more comfortable with. The original shop had a FIT. Absolute FIT. Lectured me and at first made it seem like they wouldn't give me my papers so I could prove I'd done the classwork. Needless to say I stood my ground, got my papers and cert'd with another outfit, but I have never done business with the original shop again.

If I had known then what I know now about the differences in style, personalized attention, and length of classes, I would have approached my certification much much differently.

Threads like this help newbies. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for that! geesh I felt like I had some freak occurance. I would like to state some people in my group were quite kind. However, I got only name introductions with them, but some acted as instructors at times. ?? They were more helpful, understanding, and encouraging then my two main contacts, (the instructors/owners).

 

[GI0Ria]

Honestly, I can't imagine the headaches of running OW classes from a shop in Sacramento, with OW dives in Monterey. That's a LONG way for people to drive, and you add lodging and meals to the cost, and then you have the unpredictable winter weather. But aren't the swell forecasts available well ahead of time? I know my Monterey friends have been fussing and sulking over the predictions, and scrubbing dives. It seems as though a shop would have the option to do that -- but maybe they hope against hope that it will be better that the forecast says. I'd sure be bent majorly out of shape if I drove all the way from Sacramento to Monterey and the instructor turned around and said, "Nope, not diving today -- let's see if we can reschedule this in a few weeks . . . "

Everyone is assuming this Shop is in Sacramento, it is NOT. I drive a decent distance to go there. I have spent many hours in drive time for this. As far as I know nobody else was coming from Sacramento, they were all local to the shop.
I would NOT of drove there if they did not make it seem as if they would make it the best experience of my life. Would anyone?

Another thing- oh bother, n/m
lol it's my fault I guess

 

[Guy Alcala]

I understand what you're saying.

I'm not sure you realize there were 3 dives a day, a total of 6 dives. 2 people 12 dives get that?

No, I didn't realize that, and it's unusual. The first 'dive' is usually in just your BC so you can do a weight check, which is followed by either 4 or 5 scuba dives (I forget what my OW course had) over two days. The dives tend to be short for the reason Lynne (TSandM) stated; new divers usually Hoover air. So there's usually more than ample time to get tanks filled at the end of the day, if not during a lunch break.

MY point is regardless of what the cost is, it is the cost you sign up for in the beginning. If they need to raise their prices to fix some issue they should do that, hidden costs are not an option-
You don't bait people in with one price, then add on as you go, when EVERYTHING INCLUDED---
Also he stated he was discounting me 100 dollars for doing the online course work already- NOT
I went online and that was the regular class prices, and it's written big on his store windows, price I paid.
When you have been receiving statements with paid in full and told everything is included it should be included! Even the receipt I left with for the trip package said PAID IN FULL.

No argument from me.

This is not the main issue it was just YET ANOTHER UNDERLYING issue I dealth with. The main issues was safety in the water. Feeling safe- being mislead about not being pressured or pushed, those are more the main issues I would imagine.

Certainly. BTW, just for research purposes (this feeds into a continuing discussion elsewhere on the board regarding the value of previous swimming ability to dive training, especially regarding comfort in the water), if you don't mind would you tell me how good a swimmer you are? Did you have problems with the swim test? Do you dog paddle, or can you swim the basic strokes (free/breast/side)? If you're not comfortable discussing it, no biggie.

Thanks,

Guy