Fail! Weekend Certify-
- Thread starter GI0Ria
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You got me there!!!
OP
GI0Ria
Contributor
Everybody has personal opinions.
Again this is a post to show the experience I had. Regardless of what you want it to be or be about things will evolve naturally. I will gladly give you the dive shops name if you want to invite them for their side.. ? yes?
You see that is what your comment provokes. For the most part I believe many ideas and experiences and thoughts regardless of right or wrong have came out, and it's important when a new diver wants to know various things they need to consider.
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OP
GI0Ria
Contributor
I agree, it should be kept less personal- it is an oxymoron however to say keep it less personal when it regards safety on ones life.
This is too much to ask from most. Only because we feel our lives are of more value then saving face.
With that said,
I'm not sure anyone is intentionally leading to anyone, directing negative comments to any one person on purpose? Correct? That is what I meant by evolving in my last comment to this post by you.
Guy Alcala
Contributor
Aquarius II will happily fill student tanks; I'd guess that's 80% of their fills. You might have to mention that you're a student and give the name of your instructor (AFAIR I didn't, but it's been a while). I confess I was surprised at the need to haul 3 tanks per person. I know the (SSI-affiliated) dive shop I did my OW through, and every other shop I'm aware of in the Bay Area, only requires two tanks per person, which my shop supplied as part of the course fee. I also got a handout telling me what to bring, how to get there, times, etc.
Judging by Peter C's photos, with the conditions like they were on Sunday nowhere along the Monterey shore would have been good for an OW class. If the waves were burying the bottom of the rail at BW, they would have probably been slamming into the base of the hotel at McAbee. Lover's #1 or Coral Street would turn students into pinballs as surge bounced them off rocks they couldn't see; Lover's #2 would most likely have tons of surfers in the water off the point, and Lover's #3 would be near suicidal for beginners. I'm guessing Stillwater Cove might have been the only site with decent beginner conditions, assuming a west/NW swell.
I understand the economic argument, but those conditions are just beyond beginner standards. I have seen intructors take OW students out in such conditions at BW before, and I've always thought it was not only dangerous but likely to turn off many of the students to diving. After all, some will think it's always like that.
Which is a shame, because BW can be a very nice dive in reasonable or better conditions; I had a very enjoyable hour-plus dive there on the 21st, and it's also an excellent night dive. I did my OW there in January a few years back, and we had 40' horizontal vis and 45'+ vertical (we could look down from the surface and clearly see the AI on the bottom at the outer end of the Big Pipe), still the best vis I've ever encountered there despite somewhere between 50-100 dives at BW.
I've also encountered vis of 4" in a red tide, gotten knocked down and rolled, and gotten caught in the Bermuda Triangle in the corner, and I've helped pick up/drag out of the surf my share of students who were knocked down and unable to get up or out. It's just a question of picking your days, as Peter C. and his Fundies class did. The OW instructor should have called it, and told the students that's just the way it goes sometimes. Indeed, that should be clearly stated in the class materials when you sign up.
Guy
Troutmaster
Contributor
I am not siding up at all, however unless you were there, you don't "know" if the information was presented to her and she did not listen, or if the information was not provided.
As far a hauling the gear, 2 shops that I have trained with hauled gear in a trailer for OW students, you just needed your mask/fins/snorkle/wetsuit, everthing else was transported for you.
Lets not make an assumption either way until we here both sides, but saying the OP must not have been paying attention without hearing any evidence of that seems unfair.
OP
GI0Ria
Contributor
I believe I found out the reasoning behind the 6 tanks. When I was on my way home and hitting the freeway in my car :/ I called them and stated to them that this was to much for my car to take, that I couldn't do this again, I would need smaller and less tanks.
He stated, 'I did that to save you money on air fills'..
yes, I was then again thinking did I miss this somewhere in the take your gear conversation the day b4 we left.?
No I'm positive I didn't. I actually went on the website and it states everything is included in the OW course and Ocean check off dives including AIR.
So NO he did that to save HIM money on air fills. Now these are more things to ask whoever you sign up to take your course with what is covered, what is expected, I can't stress this enough. There is more to this OF COURSE. But it's the general idea I was trying to give without such lengthy details.
rstofer
Contributor
Well, duh! Now I see why we're talking about 6 tanks; two divers! I have been puzzled about this all day but I didn't want to be the one to bring it up. We routinely carry 6 HP 100s and 2 Al 50s in a Chevy Trailblazer along with equipment for 4 divers. It isn't pretty...
Guy: I agree 100% about walking away from those conditions. It is really intimidating for new divers and it doesn't lead to a strong desire to do it again. There are better days!
One of the problems with diving during the winter is the sea conditions. It's not like there isn't predictive information available:
Monterey Sea Conditions at a Glance
I usually wimp out and if there isn't a lot of dark blue around Breakwater, I don't go. I'm too old to get pounded in the surf.
Friday, March 5th looks good! Blue is my favorite color.
Richard
Guy: I agree 100% about walking away from those conditions. It is really intimidating for new divers and it doesn't lead to a strong desire to do it again. There are better days!
One of the problems with diving during the winter is the sea conditions. It's not like there isn't predictive information available:
Monterey Sea Conditions at a Glance
I usually wimp out and if there isn't a lot of dark blue around Breakwater, I don't go. I'm too old to get pounded in the surf.
Friday, March 5th looks good! Blue is my favorite color.
Richard
"Yeah, Sunday was pretty nasty. We let our students walk in, since getting past the waves quickly was key. It was actually the instructor who got hit the hardest, since he was watching the students instead of the ocean. I TRIED to warn him...
It wasn't quite as bad on the other side of the beach since you avoided the little washing machine that gets created by the wall, so we entered there. Once under, nobody who called a dive missed much. It opened up to about 5' of vis around 40fsw, but any shallower than that it was <2' visibility, oftentimes dropping to <6" on the swim in. The surge was pretty stiff, and made the simple navigation exercise a bit more challenging for our students (to say the least)."
That was me (it's not that hard to find this in the NorCal forum). Just to clarify, I'm still a DM candidate doing my internship work. Just doing some butt-covering here...
The key thing we did on Sunday was to sit and evaluate conditions, make a plan, and then execute that plan. We changed our entry plan (location/method) based on the state of the surf zone to minimize the amount of wave action we had to deal with. We only had 2 students, which left us 1:1 coverage between myself and the instructor. We did a thorough briefing on how we were going to enter and exit BEFORE walking down the beach. The students were both young, in good physical shape, and we had a good idea of their comfort-level from the day before. We stayed close to the students throughout the day, to ensure that there were no accidental separations. Intentional separations would've been foolhardy, to say the least. While conditions were certainly not ideal, I stand by my group's decision-making and feel that we executed a safe, controlled dive that was appropriate for the conditions and our students. If they had been less comfortable/capable by our estimation, we would have called the dive day.
From your description it sounds like your group was diving nearer to the breakwater wall (the plan we rejected), was bigger (implying less coverage), and didn't have as clear of a plan that accounted for everybody's comfort level. Assuming I trust your account, I can only say that that's most unfortunate. I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the story, but it doesn't change the fact that I sympathize with what you went through, and that I'm sorry your first Monterey diving experience wasn't a more positive one.
Do keep in mind that things like tarps and chairs, while nice, aren't strictly necessary to dive comfortably at this site. Rain, while annoying, is not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things (disconcerting as it can initially be). Like Peter was pointing out earlier, Monterey diving can be challenging. Even divers with a fair bit of experience diving in less challenging areas can be a bit uncomfortable doing the type of dives we do all the time and consider fine. I say that only to point out that there may be times when an instructor might apply a bit of a "push" to help get a new diver in the water and "get it done". I think it's highly unfortunate, however, that in your case that "push" was done negatively. There are plenty of positive, reassuring ways to provide that little push. Additionally, if somebody told me as emphatically as you claim to have that you were extremely uncomfortable with the conditions, I would probably not have put you in the water.
Guy Alcala
Contributor
The way most shops do things, tanks and fills at the shop for your pool sessions and first day's OW dives are included in the class fee, but _you_ pay to refill your tanks in Monterey, currently $6 at Aquarius II for a 3000 PSI or less fill ($4.80/fill with a 10 fill card, but a student doesn't need that unless they know they'll be diving in Monterey regularly). Most shops outside the Monterey area charge less for a fill, at least if you've got a fill card.
As to saving him money, I doubt it. He could just as easily have done like every other shop I know of does, as described above. Shops rarely make money on fills; it's a loss leader for them. It's the stuff you buy while you're in the shop getting your fills that keeps them in business. And then there's the whole need for the shop to buy/maintain and keep track of that many extra tanks, which get far more abuse by students than personally-owned tanks usually do.
So, while I think your shop's policy is awkward for many people (and their cars), I don't think they're doing it to save themselves money. It's just too much unnecessary hassle. I am somewhat surprised that 6 tanks was bottoming out your suspension, assuming these were Aluminum 80s. They weigh ~38 lb. ea. when full, so six of them would be about 230 lb. Now, if you put all the rest of your gear in the cargo area with them, instead of the back seat, I could understand it.
Guy
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OP
GI0Ria
Contributor
Well 8 tanks for 4 divers is 2 tanks per diver...? 6 tanks for 2 divers seems like a lot especially when I had no I idea til less than 48 hours b4 I left that I was to take my gear let alone tanks. 2 tanks is plenty, and smaller tanks would be more reasonable it seems. Some people struggle with footing already in the surgy water, seems less weight adds up to making more sense. Now that I've been, down time was no more than 30-40 mins. 50s the kids were using worked! I know I could of benefited much better in the surge with smaller tanks, would of been more manageable. Considering tank sizes are important- from one size to the next is a significant diff. specially if you're adding weight to your back, that is a lot of weight to your back if you fall backside.
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