Female only classes

[ladycute1]

Good morning, Dave --

I read your post late last night, and had hoped that someone more knowledgable than I am would respond to the issues you mentioned
regarding gender politics --- but, I'll give it a try.

The original question was about women only dive classes. One point is, that men are in a position of social and political power as compared to women. So, in any coed group setting, that power dynamic is always present (even if subtle.) So, in my opinion, your premise of saying "white only classes" as a comparison is flawed. Since in the area of gender politics, whites are in a relative position of social and political power compared to blacks, a more accurate comparison might be "black only classes".

But anyway, let me get back to the idea of women only classes, since that was the point of the discussion. There has been a great deal of research that indicates women are more successful in educational settings that are single gender. -- that power dynamic is removed. That is not to say that women can't be succesful in coed classes, just that a coed class presents additionaly barriers that women will need to overcome. As has been mentioned in this thread, many, if not most women, have participated in coed classes and have done very well.

Since the sport of diving is dominated by men; most tables, research, gear, instructional techniques, advertising, etc. are directed at men, a women only class would not take anything away from men -- rather, a woman only class would assist women in making entry into a male dominated arena.

OK, I also feel drawn to try and respond to some of your other points:

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As a guy, I continue to be absolutely amazed what the siege mentality is of women who do everything they can to surround themselves with things identified as women only and exclude men.
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I'm not sure I understand your idea of a 'seige mentality'. I think the discussion of a women only dive class is a far cry from 'women doing everything they can to exclude men'.
(When men have done things to exclude women, is that a seige mentality?)

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Then on the other hand, they sue to insiunate themselves into male bastions like women sports reporters suing for access to mens pro football locker rooms where the guys are naked. Then they sue for sexual harassment if a naked guy in the locker room makes a sexual comment. These women are called "civil rights pioneers". If male reporters sued to get into a female locker room, he would be called a pervert, creep and a lurker".
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Well, I don't understand how this relates to a women only dive class.... but...

Women sports reports sued to get into male locker rooms because that's where the athletes were giving interviews, if women sports writers were to do their job, they had to have access to the athletes to do the interviews. As far as a naked guy in a locker room making a sexual comment... Would he make a sexual comment to a male sportswriter? If he were naked and being examined by a female doctor, would it be ok to make a sexual comment? Just because a woman is present in front of a naked man, she _deserves_ to hear a sexual comment?

As far as male sports writers being allowed in women's locker rooms -- I think that's fine, if that's where the interviews are being given. However, I think that women athletes, in order to get the same media coverage have had to be more available to sports writers, and have given their interviews outside of locker rooms.

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As an example, my wife buys shaving cream allegedly made just for women, which is a crock-shaving cream is shaving cream. She buys all kinds of nonsense that is identical to guy stuff. She admits intellectually she knows it is the same ingredients, but she gets suckered into it.
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Again, I'm not sure how this relates to a women only dive class. It does reflect the effectiveness of marketing.

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The things women do as a result of a lack of testosterone and a more abundant estrogen level does not make me not want to hang around them because of all the "emotional baggage" (an inverse play off of "macho").
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I'm not even sure what this means.

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I think it is neat that women do adventure activities, and I think it is cool when women voluntarily join their guys in activities that are mutually enjoyable and cement their relationships.
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I certainly can't argue with that.

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But you don't see guys rushing to join "men only gyms" (except in West Hollywood), we don't come out with Mens Entertainment TV channels, we don't get exasperated when women "hit on us", I didn't scream rape and file a lawsuit against a women on a dive boat that flashed me or on another boat, pressed her bare breast through her t-shirt against the back of my hand.....gosh, I felt so "violated"...right!
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I think this is an example of men's relative power -- Men rarely need men only gyms.... most gyms and gym equipment are designed with men in mind. Some of the reasons that women get exasperated when men 'hit on them' are 1) a concern for safety, if a woman isn't _very_ clear about not wanting to be 'hit on' then she is often accused of 'wanting it' (and even if she is very clear!) and 2) women have a long history of being seen first as an object of sexual attraction, as opposed to whatever other business may be at hand. If a woman wants information about how to better accomodate her body in dive gear designed for a man, it seems reasonable (at least to me) that she might be a little frustrated at having to deal with sexual comments about her body.

And, if you didn't feel violated by the women 'hitting on you' on the dive boat, then it sounds like you both had some fun. On the other hand, if you _had_ been uncomfortable and had asked her to stop and she had continued, then it _would_ have been a violation -- a violation of your wishes.

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Maybe guys just enjoy women more in than women in the U.S. enjoy men....I say that because women in the U.S. seem to like to look at nude and near nude women an awful lot, evidence by Cosmo, Vogue, Ujena, etc., yet they ridicule men in Speedo's, whereas in Europe, the Mediteranean and South America, women love to see guys in small thin Speedo's.
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Research indicates that heterosexual women who look at nude women in magazines are usually comparing themselves to the women in the magazines, and are usually being self-critical that they don't live up to the standards presented in the media.


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When I proposed paraglider training for the day with my wife for something to different to do, I am glad she went along and gave it a try-she was unsafe, dangerous and didn't have the aptitude to do it safely, so rather than pushing her and ridiculing her, I told her I was glad she didn't proceed.
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But, what if a women's only para-gliding class could help your wife develop the aptitude, and she could learn a new sport at her pace, from an instructor who understood how her body worked -- Wouldn't a better outcome be a proficient, safe paragliding wife than a non-paragliding wife?


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As to carrying heavy tanks, many women want it both ways, they claim they want equality and they can handle anything themselves, then they either complain men are helping too much, unless of course it is too heavy or the tire needs changing, then all of a suddent feminist equality is thrown right out the door when it is convenient, same goes for when the expensive dinner date bill comes around.
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Well, I'm not sure who you are referring to here.... I have repeatedly read women on this board posting that if 'they breathe it- they carry it'. And, speaking for myself, I have changed many a tire. I don't _like_ doing it, probably neither do most men -- it is messy and a nuisance, but I am perfectly capable of doing it

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As far as being "hit upon", geez, count your blessings for christ's sake! I had many female friends at dance clubs who would have loved to have guys pay as much attention to them as their good looking girlfriends. When I clubbed, I made it a point that when there were 2 girls together, I would ask the more average looking one to dance. Watching a woman's spirit light up when I did that was really a beautiful thing. They usually had the more attractive personality anyway. So consider yourself privileged and lucky if guys find you attractive, many women would love to have your "problem".
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Your argument here reminds me of a common interaction between a parent and child:
Child - "Ick, I don't like beets! I hate them! I don't want to eat them!"
Parent- "You should be grateful to have something to eat! There are children starving in (fill in generationally appropriate famine area) ! You'll eat you beets and enjoy them! Think how luck you are for having them!"

(The kid may succumb to the parent's power and actually eat the beets, but that doesn't mean they're going to like them.)

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I do understand wanting to be with people at your own skill lever and skill advancement pace though.
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So, does that mean that you support women only dive classes???

 

[artsprite]

your pun is truly funny DrySuitDave.
that being said...

"if" ? he was 300? ...trust me, I'm probably underestimating.

Also, you got what you deserved with ladycute 1's reply.

You Go Girl ladycute 1 ...I agree with everything you said.

I would like to add only one thing...
there are lots of reasons that a woman, or even a man, might need help carrying the weight of scuba equipment. there are many "invisible disabilities" that prevent people from being able to handle the weight on land, but are quite capable in every other respect. I know, because I have one. It doesn't make me weak in mind or spirit, and it doesn't mean I am playing the weaker sex.

 

[DrySuitDave]

"The original question was about women only dive classes. One point is, that men are in a position of social and political power as compared to women."

I disagree with this claim. The fact is because women have more electoral power than men by virtue of superior numbers inclusive of voter registration numbers, it is women who have all the political power. Unrebuttable evidence of such can be ascertained by politicians who utterly suck up to the female gender vote with claims of " I support a woman's right to choose" while ignoring a man's lack of a right to choose, then they establish every conceivable women's commission, board, center, etc. Just today I read in the papers about how women can get free mammograms and pap smears by calling the LA County Women's Commission. There is no men's commission.

The clever feminist trick is to perpetuate a claim of inferiority while excercisng superiority as a deceptive tool to maintain the very privilege they deny. When the government doesn't do the bidding of women, women claim the government is run by men, while ignoring the obvious fact that it is women who put them there. When things go wrong, women get to blame men.

Next we have pawns of the feminist movement -George Bush Sr, who signed the Violence Against Women Protection Act", ignoring the fact that men are remarkably more likely to be the victim of violent crimes. Feminists try to deflect how badly this damages their gender hegemony crusade by claiming it is other men doing the perpetrating. This doesn't make being victimized any easier for the victim. Luckily the U.S. Supreme Court has already struck down most of the VAWPA as an unconstitutional violation of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause because it discriminates on the basis of gender.

"But anyway, let me get back to the idea of women only classes, since that was the point of the discussion. There has been a great deal of research that indicates women are more successful in educational settings that are single gender. -- that power dynamic is removed."

That is because females then get to spend less time concerning themselves with primping and preening to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex. They can dispense with things like wearing liptstick, which any behavioral anthropologist will tell you is designed for women to be able to make their mouths mimic engorged genitalia, or rouge designed to mimic being sexually aroused, both signals an attractant to the opposite sex. Then when men respond to these signals, women call us pigs "after just one thing" and then tell us what we think with.

Of course, it we are to take the studies claims you referenced as fact, one must ask the question, why do females at all grade levels excel over males in grades, tests, and graduation? Reminds me of the junk science Sladker study fawned over the the feminist upsucking media, forgetting how this flawed study was bought and paid for by the American Association of University Women-a notoriously misandristic organization, yet instead we had thousands of media stories on "Girls Shortchanged in Schools!" at the same time we had girls with better grades and higher graduation percentages at all levels.

I would agree the power dynamic is removed, but that is the power dynamic that women have over men by virtue of tightly controlling male's ability to obtain sexual pleasure by tightly rationing it. That is why women hate prostitutes so much, because it is perceived as a threat to the tool women use quite successfully to manipulate men.

"That is not to say that women can't be succesful in coed classes, just that a coed class presents additionaly barriers that women will need to overcome."

This statement assumes that males present barriers to females, a common feminist refrain repeated like a mantra to perpetuate a victim mentality.

"Since the sport of diving is dominated by men; most tables, research, gear, instructional techniques, advertising, etc. are directed at men, a women only class would not take anything away from men -- rather, a woman only class would assist women in making entry into a male dominated arena."

A women only class would not change the fact that more men buy equipment and read dive magazines and like to look at women divers in ads wearing bikini's. And if they had half naked hunksters in scuba magazines, you wouldn't see guys complaining we need male oriented dive magazines. We don't see everything through gender colored glasses.

"I'm not sure I understand your idea of a 'seige mentality'. I think the discussion of a women only dive class is a far cry from 'women doing everything they can to exclude men'.
(When men have done things to exclude women, is that a seige mentality?)"

By siege mentality I mean the constant fascination with gender issues inclusive of the us v them thing. Women seem to be in constant fear of walking alone at night. I use caution and prudence when walking alone, but it would be fairly easy for several people to overpower a guy walking alone by himself at night, yet men aren't paralyzed with fear. If I stuffed some socks in my drawers and women commented on my bulge, I wouldn't act shocked, but this is what women do when they wear padded bras, revelaing attire and makeup. Siege mentality also means going around perpetuating the myth than men are more powerful, privileged and run society when the opposite is true. The ultimate barometer of privilege is longevity, and women live quite a bit longer than men.

"Well, I don't understand how this relates to a women only dive class.... but..."

It was illustrative of the gender issues being discussed.

"Women sports reports sued to get into male locker rooms because that's where the athletes were giving interviews, if women sports writers were to do their job, they had to have access to the athletes to do the interviews. As far as a naked guy in a locker room making a sexual comment... Would he make a sexual comment to a male sportswriter? If he were naked and being examined by a female doctor, would it be ok to make a sexual comment? Just because a woman is present in front of a naked man, she _deserves_ to hear a sexual comment?"

Most guys are't sexually attracted to other guys. It's the old double standard of women wearing pushup bras to give the false impression of larger breasts, or making breast augmentation the #1 elective cosmetic surgery for women, then complaining guys think with their genitalia and stare at women's breasts-what hypocrisy. If a guy is walking around a locker room nude and a women sports reporter decides she wants to look at naked guys, receiving sexually charged comments shouldn't come as any suprise. I have been the recipient of many sexually charged comments from women, but I didn't run to the EEOC and whine and ask for a male only dive boat.

"As far as male sports writers being allowed in women's locker rooms -- I think that's fine, if that's where the interviews are being given. However, I think that women athletes, in order to get the same media coverage have had to be more available to sports writers, and have given their interviews outside of locker rooms."

Women's sports are not as popular as mens sports, because women don't make them so. Sports are modern day civilized versions of warfare, and until such time women are the warriors and men are the nurturers, it will stay that way reinforced by both genders. On the other hand feminists got male politicians to pass Title X which forces colleges to spend as much on women's sports as they do on men's, ignoring the fact that women do not want to enter into collegiate sports in the same numbers as men. Feminists have a way of turning that truth into a clever trick, but most see through it. You don't see guys suing to force the government to pass laws requiring colleges to spend as much on "Men's Studies" as they do on women's.

Men tend to respect womens bastions while women tend to disrespect men's.
It would not be gentlemanly to sue to get into a woman's health club, college or sports team or anything women only, although it makes for good political parody.


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But you don't see guys rushing to join "men only gyms" (except in West Hollywood), we don't come out with Mens Entertainment TV channels, we don't get exasperated when women "hit on us", I didn't scream rape and file a lawsuit against a women on a dive boat that flashed me or on another boat, pressed her bare breast through her t-shirt against the back of my hand.....gosh, I felt so "violated"...right!
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"I think this is an example of men's relative power -- Men rarely need men only gyms.... most gyms and gym equipment are designed with men in mind."

I completely disagree. Both free weights and weight machines can be used equally by both sexes, and every free weight rack I have used had very small weights and all the machines I have ever used had very light weight adjustments. I can't ever think of one justification for having a male only gym.
Us guys like women, and we don't think they are the enemy....ever.

"Some of the reasons that women get exasperated when men 'hit on them' are 1) a concern for safety, if a woman isn't _very_ clear about not wanting to be 'hit on' then she is often accused of 'wanting it' (and even if she is very clear!)"

I can't begin to tell you how many times a woman's no to me meant yes, and how many times I have been taken to task for acting as if the no meant no. Us guys learn about such games being played on us real fast. That is repeatedly reinforced by women who deem men unworthy if he doesn't vigorously pursue a woman. When women start to mean no when they say no, then men will respond accordingly.

"and 2) women have a long history of being seen first as an object of sexual attraction, as opposed to whatever other business may be at hand."

As long as women act like sexual objects and it is anthropologically useful, men will respond to the sexual signals women employ and reinforce on a daily basis. It is interesting that anyone would act as if being seen as a sexual object is some evil plot by conspiring males. Being seen as a sexual object is how women are designed as it serves to perpetuate the human race, just as us guys being seen as sucess objects serves a useful purpose to women. We just don't sue when we are understandably seen as such, and we don't form poor, broke men's clubs to change the dynamic of women being attracted to successful guys.

"If a woman wants information about how to better accomodate her body in dive gear designed for a man, it seems reasonable (at least to me) that she might be a little frustrated at having to deal with sexual comments about her body."

I don't think being a female makes one any more qualified to discuss options of equipment more suitable for women any more than an observant guy would be. If it were my task as an instructor to know how to equip the different proportions of men and women students, you can bet I would do the research and accomodate both genders.


"And, if you didn't feel violated by the women 'hitting on you' on the dive boat, then it sounds like you both had some fun. On the other hand, if you _had_ been uncomfortable and had asked her to stop and she had continued, then it _would_ have been a violation -- a violation of your wishes."

I don't think people have the right to not be found attractive, and I don't feel I have the right to curtail other people's freedom of expression. To deem one act acceptable because the target "had some fun" is problematic considering studies show many women who are raped are lubricated.

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Maybe guys just enjoy women more in than women in the U.S. enjoy men....I say that because women in the U.S. seem to like to look at nude and near nude women an awful lot, evidence by Cosmo, Vogue, Ujena, etc., yet they ridicule men in Speedo's, whereas in Europe, the Mediteranean and South America, women love to see guys in small thin Speedo's.
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"Research indicates that heterosexual women who look at nude women in magazines are usually comparing themselves to the women in the magazines, and are usually being self-critical that they don't live up to the standards presented in the media."

The fact that most women will make the claim that a woman's nude body is more attractive than a man's would seem to contradict that hypothesis.


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When I proposed paraglider training for the day with my wife for something to different to do, I am glad she went along and gave it a try-she was unsafe, dangerous and didn't have the aptitude to do it safely, so rather than pushing her and ridiculing her, I told her I was glad she didn't proceed.
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"But, what if a women's only para-gliding class could help your wife develop the aptitude, and she could learn a new sport at her pace, from an instructor who understood how her body worked -- Wouldn't a better outcome be a proficient, safe paragliding wife than a non-paragliding wife?"

In the case of paragliding, a women's body works no different than a man's..sheesh.! My wife didn't have the type of aptitude to recognize what needs to be done to keep from breaking her neck. That wasn't because she is female, it is just her aptitude in those types of situation. Being in a different class wouldn't have helped her, because some aptitudes can't be learned sometimes.


"Well, I'm not sure who you are referring to here.... "

Nobody in particular.

>
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I do understand wanting to be with people at your own skill lever and skill advancement pace though.
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"So, does that mean that you support women only dive classes???"

Interesting conclusion on your part. In my case, I don't think women's skill level is automatically below that of men's when it comes to diving instruction.

Clearly though I need to go to a "guys-only" typing class where I could learn to actually proofread my posts for typos before posting them!



artsprite, I am glad you got a kick out of my silly pun, I amused myself coming up with it.....

But I wouldn't think a woman weak of mind just because she asked for help. When I see people stuck in cars, I just as quickly help push a stranded car out of the way if it is driven by a guy than a woman. I think it is more of a problem solving/teamwork mentality rather than a gender issue for me.

Now if only I could as easily to get station attendents to pump my gas as my wife seems to.......

By the way, since sometimes it is hard to tell on the Internet just where a person is coming from, I am replying here because I enjoy a good civil exchange of different opinions amongst friends.

 

[ladycute1]

Well, Dave,

I have the sense that I will never convince you, and you will never convince me. I think we come at these issues from dramatically different places.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

Happy Diving.

Liz

 

[DrySuitDave]

Just to further try to understand some people's position, I talked to my wife this afternoon and asked her for her thoughts on women-only classes, etc.

I completely adopted some women's position here and made the same arguments in favor of women only stuff, just to see her responses to each issue.

When I asked her if she though she would have been more comfortable in a non-"male dominated" class for her diving instruction, she said she thought it would be "lame". I used the "but what about the macho" line. She said in her class she didn't perceive any excess of that.

I asked her if women instructors would be better suited for equipment selection help, and she said "we're talking scuba equipment here, not tampon insertion techniques." I think her point was this is not rocket science.

I asked her if she would be more comfortable in an atmosphere where guys don't "hit" (to use the "violent" term some women use when men court them) on her. She said any woman who complains about guys pursuing them needs an attitude adjustment, she used some term about "this is real life, people persue eachother sexually. There is a line that can be crossed".

Reminds me of my brothers first wife, who was a sharp, quick thinker so I admired her for it. She was at a bus bench waiting to go home from work and some guy pulls up and motions her over. She ignored him. He kept at it, and finally curiosity got the better of him. She walks over and sees the guy with his shorts down pleasuring himself. Did she run, did she shriek, did she call the police, did she sue, did she call a feminist hotline, did she call a battered women's shelter, did she call a Government Commission on the Status of Women, did she report a "hate crime" because it was based upon gender?!

No, without the slightest hesitation, she leaned right up to the edge of the door, stared right at his gear, pointed and laughed hysterically. The guy screached away in disgust.

Afterwards she didn't seek consolation, she didn't cry, she wasn't mad, she didn't feel "disempowered by the male chauvanist patriarchy", she didn't go on a hunger strike singing Cumbaya in support of a women only bus bench area, she didn't suffer from post traumatic stress disorder and need counseling, instead she got a huge kick out of it.

Another time she was walking through a door at a business social function when a 70 or so year old women with a complete fox pelt wrapped around her shoulders completely body slammed into her. The old woman had not been remotely paying attention. Rather than apologizing to my brothers wife, the old woman tore into her as if it were her fault. In spite of the older women being dead wrong rather than arguing the point, she just looked at the fox pelt on the womens shoulders and deadpanned; "I bet that thing died the second it hit your neck."

I have a woman who does massage who works on me regularly. She told me if a guy gets aroused during a massage, she thinks it is cool he is getting that type of pleasure out of it, more power to him, altough she won't act upon it.
Yet I had women in my massage class ask what they should do if guy gets hard during a massage. I shot back; "What would you do if you women are doing Swedish technique on a woman client and her nipples get hard?." (This frequently happens when guys work on women clients).

My wife said she enjoyed all the guys in automotive class because the were like brothers to her. She liked the male diving instructor because he was fun and cracked jokes at her lack of bladder capacity to her amusement.

What I see from these examples is a common thread of some women are able to relate to guys and handle things, rather than having a subsurface contempt for things male. The prior is an attractive trait.

I think when families consist of boys and girl growing up together, it is a quite positive influence.

I was at a rock concert once and women were going into the guys bathroom which happened with the one I was in. All the guys just laughed and ignored it all. The poor girls must have had to pee really badly so we all felt bad but the girls came up with a solution-problem solved! We didn't hold candlelight vigils, we didn't get a bunch of brothers together, blowing our rape whistles, marching together in a "take back the night" protest while singing "we shall overcome" interspersed with shouts of boyyyypowrrrr!!!" (you all really should attend a university feminist rally or college women's studies course-oops, same thing- to see the venomous anti-male hatred being indoctrinated into today's young women)

Anyway ladycute1, I appreciate your civil tone

 

[ladycute1]

Dave,

I'm glad you appreciated my civil tone, I only wish that you could have voiced your disagreement with a little less contempt for those who disagree with you.

 

[DrySuitDave]

This by no means people in this thread, but some of the feminist views I referenced deserve contempt and scorn the same way Rosa Parks was justified in having contempt and scorn for
"back of the bus" signs, and the judge and prosectutor who tried to jail Susan B Anthony for voting deserved her righteous contempt and scorn.

 

[Kaffphine]

Although this has become almost a discussion between DrySuitDave and LadyCute1 I'll think I'll still add my two cents.

I've done OW, AOW and just recently a drysuit course and have always found myself the ony gal in the class and often the only on the boat. For OW I actually had three instuctors, Laura for acedmics Jennifer for OW and when I went for the last two OW she some major conjection and I finished with Peter. The other instuctors were guys and other than just being different people I didn't notice any difference in teaching or treatment of students.

I've read (or most of) the discussion between DrySuitDave and LadyCute1 . Women lib, there's only three takes on that. 1-Norman Rockwell, read the mag on how to do your make-up when 'your man comes home'. 2-the "sue to get everything" so well sterotyped by college women groups. 3-Really, sounds great I'll do it, oh that's a 'guy thing'? I think we all can agree that 1's probably aren't interested in diving once they realize the make-up will run, 2's are probably too busy protesting something, leaving the tank-carring 3's to enjoy the often crass world of divers without regs in thier mouth.

My final push on getting cert was being left on the seawall when the crew went diving. Crew with guys, live with guys, dive with guys it wasn't til I got back here that I found out diving was 'suppost' to a guy thing. I don't thing I'd take an all women's class. Biggest reason why for me, I get along with a group of guy way better than a group of gals.



Just the thought of a life-long tom boy.

 

[neil]

Originally posted by Kaffphine

I don't thing I'd take an all women's class. Biggest reason why for me, I get along with a group of guy way better than a group of gals.

Ha! I was thinking just the opposite. I would love to teach women-only classes. I've taught a couple that were nearly so. Women, to me, are so much more fun in groups than men, at least in scuba classes. I'm not sure how they felt about having a male instructor, but I sure enjoyed it. Plus I get the men's locker room all to myself.
Vive la difference!

Neil

 

[DrySuitDave]

Kaffphine, your post was a crackup! It seems as if you get along well with guys......