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Finnish diver missing in Swedish mine

Discussion in 'Accidents and Incidents' started by Storker, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. BurhanMuntasser

    BurhanMuntasser Dive Charter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Nomad
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    If you didn't know and you were talking about people you don't know who they are and what their names are, how to you convey the fact that the person is a he or a she? In my mother tongue, Arabic, we have "he" and "she" as does English.


    Doesn't this mean that she was the most experienced in her group?? I wasn't talking about "most experienced" in the world above, I was talking about being the most experienced in her group naturally.


    The facts presented so far don't add up to justify why she panicked or why she expired. Nothing seemed exceptionally difficult, there was no air loss or anything that causes extreme panic to the point of mysteriously dying. Typical cave diving courses have the students go through lots of scenarios simulating equipment issues before the diver is caver certified. It doesn't add up so far based on the facts presented.
     
  2. BurhanMuntasser

    BurhanMuntasser Dive Charter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Nomad
    4,548
    1,230
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    Isn't this strange that a supposedly certified cave diver uses their hands to back off and not use the proper fin kick to do that? It dosen't add up so far.
     
  3. Jack Hammer

    Jack Hammer Solo Diver

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    Speculation: If CO2 buildup from improper breathing or even the remote posiiblilty of CO contamination occurred it could account for the odd behavior. So could lack of sleep or hangover, or any combo of each. /Speculation.
     
  4. KevinNM

    KevinNM DIR Practitioner

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    Yeah, I'd really hope they did a gas analysis. Maybe blood too, not sure at near freezing there would be anything after days, but worth a look.
     
  5. ETJ

    ETJ Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Finland
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    I would ask :D Happens quite often.
    Finnish is a weird language. We describe things as detailed as possible using as few words as possible. And many of the words mean multiple things. We are very direct asking questions and don't do much of the "handshaking of words" before getting to the point.


    On her last dive she was again diving with other Finnish divers and I haven't seen anything suggesting they were less experienced than her. Based on the info I have read I don't know.


    Have you ever had a panic attack? I have had a very minor one once. It felt like a punch in the guts and I couldn't breathe for a minute. I collapsed on the floor in sitting position and all I could do was to think about escaping that situation in 1000 different ways before I got myself back together. I can only imagine how that would be like underwater.
     
    shoredivr and BurhanMuntasser like this.
  6. taimen

    taimen Barracuda

    # of Dives: 50 - 99
    Location: Europe
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    You just don't know. Unless it is specifically clarified, you can not convey if a person is he or she. The linked original report does not have any reference to whether the deceased diver was male or female. It only refers to divers, and uses the gender neutral pronoun.
    Thus it is possible to write a long article without revealing the gender of the main subject and for a native speaker this feel completely normal and natural. Many languages do have gender specific pronouns, and others do not. It may feel awkward, but for a native speaker it is not.

    In the other split thread you were very interested in cultural differences between nationalities. Many people think that this gender neutrality in Finnish language may have advanced gender equality in the society.

    Diving related, the report quite clearly conveys that loosing fins due to inefficient and uncontrolled kicking were actions of an already panicked diver who was not in control of herself anymore. What triggered the panic is not known.
    It is very common knowledge in diving that a panicked diver is not able to perform up to the level of his/her training and certifications.
     
    kelvkwok likes this.
  7. Rechno

    Rechno Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Germany
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    You could say, that if you talk about some person, that you don´t address by name, it would not be important if you use he/she in general and if so, you could always say "the man/ woman we are talking about.."

    @ the Panic question: Yes, if the panic really grabs you, you will notice almost nothing about what is going on around you, so in a situation like this, even the most experienced diver would possibly not have noticed his fin missing, let alone be able to handle the situation. The key is to not let the stress get into panic.....
     
  8. Kevrumbo

    Kevrumbo Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: South Santa Monica Bay/Los Angeles California, USA
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    Labored, inefficient, stressed and increased breathing rate (tachypnea and/or dyspnea) exacerbated by panic will initiate the spiraling vicious cycle of metabolic CO2 retention/poisoning into Hypercapnic stupor and unconsciousness, along with the increased risk of Oxygen Toxicity Syndrome & Convulsions.

    You must stop whatever physical exertion or cognitive discomfort (i.e. panic) that is causing the increased breathing rate, and take some time try to regain a normal respiration rate of slower and full inhalation/exhalation breaths in order to expel the excess metabolic Carbon Dioxide build-up.

    Unfortunately, this Diver could not break out of this out-of-control CO2 build-up cycle. . .

    [Eanx 28; ppO2 1.3 atm and gas density 5.6 g/L @36m depth; maximum breathing gas density at depth found to cause detrimental work-of-breathing CO2 build-up: 6 g/L and higher (see article, https://divenewzealand.co.nz/advanced-knowledge-series-the-gas-density-conundrum/)]
     
  9. kaerius

    kaerius Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sweden
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    More information from today's newspaper:
    Her gear problem was getting the drysuit air trapped in her boots, and the boots were apparently slightly oversized and came off her feet and she lost her fins.
    She was panicking, fighting her buddies trying to rescue her, kicking frantically, etc. Her dive buddies spent 20 minutes trying to save her before she drowned herself in her panic(at the end she was trying to tear off her equipment in sheer blind panic), at which point the visibility was down to half a meter(20") from all the activity kicking up silt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
    TONY CHANEY likes this.
  10. TONY CHANEY

    TONY CHANEY Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Mount Holly, NC
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    I'll do a WAG here. So all is well and you start to enter a tight restriction, your dry suit inflator hits the bottom and the suit is self inflating to the point that you are getting stuck and it blows the suit off your feet. (not due to self inflation but had the boots and fins blew off my feet) You are feeling stuck and it is harder to breath and you are getting no pay with your kicking. Panic sets in and you go into flight mode and start using your hands to aid in getting the heck out of here. Breathing is labored due to the squeeze as well as over breathing the regs. Now CO2 is building up and you are heading into respiratory acidosis which has a profound effect or decision making and can lead to death. (Or if hyper ventilating then you are blowing off CO2 to the point of respiratory alkalosis which can cause seizures). You remain in full blown flight mode, in a totally silted out tight section of the cave, and others are preventing your escape by trying to place your fins back on. It is and endless death spiral.
    To me it makes no difference if the victim was male or female.
    It is not Metabolic acidosis which is severe lost of HCO3.
    I was truly lost on the "With the help of, among other things, an underwater scooter, the woman's body could be carburized." That is what you do to metal.
    Anyway, just a thought and sorry for another lost to the dive community and us cavers.
     
    kelvkwok likes this.

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