Following standards?

[Joe-Diver]

.....an iconoclastic pedant.

Your attempt to disambiguate "mastery" to mean perfection instead of command is a lexigraphic and functional error.....

Uh....What?

 

[Thalassamania]

To which I think it's appropriate (well, accurate, at least) to respond that you are being an iconoclastic pedant.

i•con•o•clast - [ahy-kon-uh-klast] –noun
1.a breaker or destroyer of images, esp. those set up for religious veneration.
2.a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.

Since I do feel that PADI’s approach is based on error and since PADI’s approach appears to be a cherished belief on your part – iconoclast is OK by me.

ped•ant - [ped-nt] –noun
a person who makes an excessive or inappropriate display of learning.
a person who overemphasizes rules or minor details.
a person who adheres rigidly to book knowledge without regard to common sense.
Obsolete. a schoolmaster.

We’re both guilty of #1 to some degree, but none of the others work so I have to reject “pedant.”

Your attempt to disambiguate "mastery" to mean perfection instead of command is a lexigraphic and functional error. Mastery doesn't have to mean flawless repetition, it's well within the range of usage for it to mean effective and consistent. There is clearly room within the definition for a distinction between "demonstration quality" and "close enough."

mas•ter•y - [mas-tuh-ree, mah-stuh-] –noun, plural -ter•ies for 1-4.
1. command or grasp, as of a subject: a mastery of Italian.
2. superiority or victory: mastery over one's enemies.
3. the act of mastering.
4. expert skill or knowledge.
5. the state of being master; power of command or control.

Disambiguate it yourself, I’ve made no error. Does a student completing a two or three day PADI entry-level course meet any of those criteria? No!

You can’t make “mastery” work without depauperizing it exactly the way in which PADI did its training courses. Frankly I don’t believe that students could even meet your dumbed down definition of “effective and consistent,” though mastery clearly means something well above that.

I understand that you would like to restrict the meaning of the word but PADI is using it in a way that is consistent with the historical and present usage. I disagree that the explanation that PADI provides contains either a logical or rhetorical tautology but, even if it did, I wouldn't be much concerned - they're attempting to be effective and largely succeeding.

Its not that I’d like to do this or that, its that the definition of the word does not match the usage and is inconsistent with both historical and present usage except in the sole instance of PADI standards. You can disagree all that you want, your disagreement changes nothing. I’d never style my 100 hour students as displaying “mastery” and it does great violence to the language to describe an 18 hour wonder as such, unless you dumb down the word to match the course and that’s self serving and displays both lexigraphic and intellectual dishonesty.

As to your disagreeing that PADI creates a logical or rhetorical tautology: within the field of logic a tautology is a compound propositional form all of whose instances are true. What I said was

… I submit to you that that redefinition is a tautology that deprives the word “mastery” of any meaning whatsoever.

PADI redefines mastery as “performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of an open water diver.” In highfalutin’ language that’s a tautology, to be more plain spoken, that’s just on of the must damned stupid things I’ve ever heard.

 

[GoProHonduras]

Simply talking from the field, and with enough case history to justify the interpretation, in agency terminology I'd interpret 'Mastery' as being able to perform the skill repeatedly, comfortably and safely, in the future, without professional supervision or assistance.

If I know the student could repeat the skill, without myself (or staff) being there in the future, in similar diving conditions, then I am comfortable they meet the objective, plus I try to throw in some common sense applicable to diving conditions as I teach.

Whatever the level, a good scuba course is just like a map, it doesn't get you there, just shows you the way, only experience will make a good navigator.

Warm regards,
Andy

 

[Thalassamania]

Simply talking from the field, and with enough case history to justify the interpretation, in agency terminology I'd interpret 'Mastery' as being able to perform the skill repeatedly, comfortably and safely, in the future, without professional supervision or assistance.

If I know the student could repeat the skill, without myself (or staff) being there in the future, in similar diving conditions, then I am comfortable they meet the objective, plus I try to throw in some common sense applicable to diving conditions as I teach.

Whatever the level, a good scuba course is just like a map, it doesn't get you there, just shows you the way, only experience will make a good navigator.

Warm regards,
Andy

The question is not how you interpret "mastery" unless you are an expert, qulaified in lexicography. The question is what does the the word actually mean and that's not up for a vote.

 

[GoProHonduras]

Every time a professional witnessed a student demonstrate a skill, they have to determine if the student has met the objectives, so your reply doesn't make sense to me unless you would classify the majority of dive professionals as 'lexicographists'!!!

The agency uses the word 'Mastery' we have to interpret it.

If I wanted to be a 'lexicographist' (and please correct me Thalassamania if I'm misspelling!) I wouldn't be a scuba Instructor.

Warm regards,
Andy

 

[Thalassamania]

Every time a professional witnessed a student demonstrate a skill, they have to determine if the student has met the objectives, so your reply doesn't make sense to me unless you would classify the majority of dive professionals as 'lexicographists'!!!

The agency uses the word 'Mastery' we have to interpret it.

If I wanted to be a 'lexicographist' (and please correct me Thalassamania if I'm misspelling!) I wouldn't be a scuba Instructor.

Warm regards,
Andy

Then, with all due respect, stick to teaching diving and stop rewriting the dictionary, something neither of us are qualified to do. We don't get to "interpret" the word, that's what a dictionary is for.

 

[GoProHonduras]

Then, with all due respect, stick to teaching diving and stop rewriting the dictionary, something neither of us are qualified to do. We don't get to "interpret" the word, that's what a dictionary is for.

I agree, and I will, and following your advice when I'm in the water tomorrow morning teaching I'll pull out the dictionary and my 100000 page Instructor manual anytime I see a situation that requires me to use my judgement.

Warm regards,
Andy

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree, and I will, and following your advice when I'm in the water tomorrow morning teaching I'll pull out the dictionary and my 100000 page Instructor manual anytime I see a situation that requires me to use my judgement.

Warm regards,
Andy

We're talking about right now. We are both on land and we are talking about a specific word that we both have the leisure and resources to deal with right now. Neither of us must use any judgment or read an instructor manual. Just go to www.dictionary.com and type in “mastery.” Or better yet, just click here. Just cut the crap and pony up to the bar.

 

[GoProHonduras]

Rather than turn this into a 'p##ing' match, which from the frequency of our last few posts this thread is becoming, I'll sign off, looking at the number of posts we have I'm guessing you can afford more time obviously on dry land and with your head in the dictionary than I do.

I will instead apply my good judgement to my class tomorrow am.

Happy armchair diving!

Warm regards,
Andy

 

[MikeFerrara]

If nothing else, they sure send the whole "mastery" thing out into left field with the "as would be expected of an open water diver" part. As who would expect?

One thing that's easy to see in the water where classes are being conducted is that not very much seems to be expected of an OW diver. So...in relative to "what is expected" badaboombadabing...we have mastery!