Force Fins "The ultimate fins" or are they?

[nwdiver2]

I use them as the travel easy and I don't need a macho kick.

 

[Nemrod]

Question:

Speedy kicks, highly maneuverability and speed. What fin is the best?

Answer;

Scuba Pro Jet Fins XL, aka, Super Jets, the fin I love to hate and hate to love. Since 1963 the fin of choice for serious sport divers and professionals.

N

 

[meesier42]

What interests me is the idea behind them and why no other manufacturer has made a similar type of fin. Lets be honest, Split fins hit the market and every manufacturer wanted in as the fin actually worked well for a huge portion of the diving population, bladed fins have been around for ever and are still been pumped out and sold everywhere, surely if all the claims made by the manufacturers of Force fins were proveable some of the big name brands would be looking to market them under their own name??

I have been in this game for over 30 years, and have seen many odd "inventions" hit the market, some survive in a minimal capacity most just disappear,it seems the Force Fin has been around for quite a few years but maybe never hit "mainstream" - why would this be so I wonder.?

I can answer part of, if not most of this question. The critical aspect to nearly everything that is in mass production is one thing... MONEY, in the form of PROFIT. Most of us know that retail markup is normally about 400%, and that's just from the distributor to the retailer, what about the manufacturer to the wholesaler, to the distributor. Overall, the markups from production cost to retail price is often in the 1000%, or 10x production cost. Companies like this, it means they can sell a product for 10x what is cost them, and not only they make money, but the retailer, distributor and their brothers get to take a nice chunk as well.

But with ForceFins there is a major problem, the materials, the material is critical to the performance of the fin, and without these high end materials the fins are worthless. Unfortunately, the process that is required to produce the fins with this material is long, slow, and not scalable to mass production. This means that the fin is expensive to produce. In order to maintain competitive retail pricing, this translates into reduced profit margins. So proven or not, major companies are unlikely to pick up the design and copy, there just isn't enough money in it.

Oh... and of course the exception to being copied is the Split Fin design, the Foil Force was unveiled to the world a year before the Apollo Bio-Fin and the "natures wing" concept. It was Bob's idea and they stole it and did a crappy job of copying it. Of course, the Apollo is a very good fin, but still a crappy rip-off of the Foil Force.

 

[widget]

I can answer part of, if not most of this question. The critical aspect to nearly everything that is in mass production is one thing... MONEY, in the form of PROFIT.

Fair enough, not sure of the retail price of Force Fins, but I do recall hearing they were at the top end of the fin cost margin.

Perhaps higher volumes at some point could help bring that cost down, I am not in any way predjudical towards the fin, to have survived so long in a very tough market there has to be an avid following, it was just interesting to me to know why the product never got picked up and promoted by a major brand.

 

[meesier42]

retail pricing on the prime fins, e.g. the Original, Pro, and the Foil are all $150-$220. Yes top end of the retail market.

Yes, they also have fins that are well above that price, but those 3 are the main fins in the extensive collection and the Pro is the most recommended and used for scuba

 

[Susanne]

I dont know much about Force Fins haveing never used them, I have seen them at trade shows like Dema and occassionally on a recreational dive in the USA but never in Europe or elsewhere.

What interests me is the idea behind them and why no other manufacturer has made a similar type of fin. Lets be honest, Split fins hit the market and every manufacturer wanted in as the fin actually worked well for a huge portion of the diving population, bladed fins have been around for ever and are still been pumped out and sold everywhere, surely if all the claims made by the manufacturers of Force fins were proveable some of the big name brands would be looking to market them under their own name??

I have been in this game for over 30 years, and have seen many odd "inventions" hit the market, some survive in a minimal capacity most just disappear,it seems the Force Fin has been around for quite a few years but maybe never hit "mainstream" - why would this be so I wonder.?

Thank you for your intelligent query. Force Fins do have a major market share. The editors of Tauchen, Unterwasser and Taucher.net (september 05) were surprised when the notes of 2000 subscribers' responding with their opinions about fins placed different models of Force Fins into positions 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6, along with Mares and Cressi as the dominant fin brands. 57 fins were queried upon and 2000 subscribers responded.

There is a deeper issue I think underlying your question that I will attempt to address. Unfortunately, a complete answer could involve writing a book.....

It is not unusual for an inventor and visionary to be usurped in a marketplace. Initial competitive market reaction is to repel change. The psychology behind that resistence prevents their ultimate acceptance of what they maligned. No one wants to admit they were wrong. It is easier to follow the second in line than reward the innovator.

Every split fin is the main stream manufacturers' version of a Force Fin. It is their way of marketing what Force Fin has been doing for divers and in the water since 1983. But, each version is only half way there and as such, will work for a vast majority of people, but Force Fins are still the best.

Let me qualify this, Bob Evans' early Force Fin patents filed circa 1981 - 1990 disclosed a relationship between a fin blade length and their flexing wing tips, the space between them of which is a split.

1. The Force Fin shape - introduced to the diving industry in 1983 - has an optimum balance between blade length +/- 11" - more on this below - and wing tip or split length 25% thereof;
2. The Extra Force Fin - introduced to the diving industry in 1995 - has more blade length relative to the wing tips, for more leverage under load, what is commonly known as power - has attachable and adjustable - 3 clicks sound familiar? - Winglet attachments to enhance the focus of water behind and increase the lift characteristics in its function; and,
3. The Foil Force Fin, which is Force Fins version with a split that extends through the length of the blade - introduced to the diving industry 1998, and among those honored at DEMA by an award for "Most Likely To Succeed" in 1999.

All - and all is the key - you'll see bits and pieces of each of these elements in other fins - only Force Fins have been designed to do 1, 2, 3, 4 AND more, with "AND" being the key operative:

1. Cantilever the leg so as to power from the strongest kicking muscles, and to eliminate the number one cause of cramping from fins. Cramping from fins is caused by extended plantar flexion throughout an exercise cycle. A fin foot pocket, with blade extending from the end of your toes requires that you hold your foot and toe pointed as you kick to keep the fin at a proper angle of attack for propulsion. This means that the the muscles of the foot and lower leg are held contracted as you exercise. If you hold muscles contracted throughout an exercise regimen, you're going to cramp. Its basic exercise physiology that fins with blades extending from the end of your toes will cause cramping. SCUBA divers are not potassium deficient as a group. It is the main line manufacturers' fins that are causing the cramps.

Force Fins are made with an open toe foot pocket design to allow your foot to point and flex with each kick, similarly to the way in which your foot is designed to work when you walk. This is one way in which they are superior in design.

2. Through various methods, different models of Force Fins allow you to kick, or power the blade using your strong forward kicking motion, then assist on the recovery - when you pull back and encounter drag with other fins. During that recovery. Power and recovery is part of every Force Fin's function. That is one way in which Force Fins are still superior to every attempt at innovation that has come along since.

3. During the recovery, and thanks to a compression of material on the underside or within the arc of the blade, a recoil is set. When you release from that forward kicking motion, the recoil snaps the blade down - which resets and recovers your leg (2), but also throws water behind through the split between the flexing foil wing tips at a faster rate than you can move water with any fin by kicking alone. This blade snapping and focusing action is unique to Force Fin and why they are still superior to others.

In the case of the Extra Line Force Fins, adjustable Whiskers, focus the water behind.

With respect to the Foil Force Fin Bob Evans may be able to explain better than I, is that its trailing edge holds an outward cup that channels a larger volume of water behind, and limits the slippage between a split than flat foils in other manufacturers' attempts to achieve the same end with their split fins.

4. Have clean leading and side edges and through various methods activate the lift forces at work in generating thrust, and limit the drag encountered.

The real question is how does Force Fin stay in business and maintain their market share when such things exist as booking programs that tie up dive stores' capital in their main manufacturers' complete product line and when their cost of manufacture is as much as 10 times that of other companies.

It is because there are many, many, many watermen and women, who ask intelligent questions, do their research, and are more interested in the quality of the products they purchase, than the quantity they think are sold. That is why we are still here today, selling only the finest fins, for 25 years, Made in the USA, distributed around the world, in over 17 countries, and I think this is why Blair Mott calls Force Fins "The Smart Fin".

Oh, and about the 11" -- engineers of the fastest moving yachts put a pair of Force Fins into Boeings wind tunnel. I understand it started as a joke. What they found was that the wing tips are a perfect hydrofoil, and the blade length from heel to the point where the "V" split starts is at the exact point it needs to be to stop turbulence, and generate thrust from lift, at the size and speed of a diver moving through water - 11".

Bob Evans' vision, and he truly does see how water flows, is why his fins are part of the permanent collections of the Department of Design and Architecture in the New York Museum of Modern Art. With his Force Fin Bob Evans changed the way in which we perceive moving through water.

 

[ZzzKing]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Force Fin forum?

 

[Ben_ca]

How about we exclude everyone who makes money off of Force fins shall we?

All this marketing is making my head spin.

 

[uncleavi]

How about anyone who has an opinion on them.
I love them and have many pair of them. I don't make money off them. The owner is a good friend of mine and I don't hide the fact.

 

[Hatul]

On the subject of Force Fins you will find those who love and those who hate them. Which makes sense because they're different.

I like my Force Fins Pro with the bungee strap very much. They're comfortable, compact for travel and fast enough for me. Never have any problems keeping up.

A few years ago I lost one of my fins climbing up a ladder in rough seas and I thought I'd try a split fin. Based on the Scuba Diving Mag testing I chose the Apollo Biofins. I found them heavy, difficult to fin and uncomfortable -- they were cramping my feet. So I returned them, exchanged them for a new pair of Force Fins Pro, and that's what I use today.

One time I tried a friend's Atomic Split Fins and also liked them.

Adam