Full cave - stage handling

[Alekseolsen]

Baby cave diver here, slowly starting to investigate the options for Full cave.

I'm currently IANDT intro to cave, and SSI "Cave diving", allowing me to dive to 1/4, with one navigational decision. (One jump or T).
Due to the depth of the "nearby" caves and mines, I'm hoping to do a cave course that includes "staging".

I'm familiar with stages from Rec Trimix diving, and have been using a stage to extend NDL dives since I was a very fresh OW diver. (Stage allowing 2 dives with small doubles).
I've also had my total lack of stage handling in flow pointed out to me in Ginnie, which was a good lesson!

So. On the lookout for gull cave courses teaching stage handling, and "official approval" to use the stage would also be nice.

Obviously, Fond an instructor and not agency applies, but the more agencies available gives larger options for instructors.

So far I've only identified SSI that teaches stage use in full cave, any other good recommendations?

I hope to take the training in Northern Europe/Scandinavia. So I guess instructor recommendations on here will be limited, but I do have a pair in mind.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The NSS-CDS Advanced Cave Diver course is an alternative to cave diver training. It combines cave with stage training.

Advanced Cave Diver - NSS CDS

nsscds.org

 

[J-Vo]

I got TDI Full Cave and TDI Stage Cave concurrently. I was also already experienced with handling up to four additional bottles. I find the flow makes it easier as you are swimming rather than hovering.

 

[flymolo]

usually full cave and stage cave are two separate classes. intro to stage is a big jump in terms of distance and complexity (factoring in things like recalculating turn pressures, etc.)

 

[Alekseolsen]

usually full cave and stage cave are two separate classes. intro to stage is a big jump in terms of distance and complexity (factoring in things like recalculating turn pressures, etc.)

Thanks a lot for the feedback, and thats what I've found, most agencies sees this as a too large gap. I appreciate the "kickback" I'll get here (part of background for the thread), and recognised most agencies has this view.

Realizing "I dont know what I dont know", I wonder what the complexity would be when diving D12's and a S80, diving to (almost) thirds --> use stage for penetration, return on backgas. I do appreciate that i.e Florida "flow caves" may call for different approach due to stage buoyancy etc.

 

[flymolo]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, and thats what I've found, most agencies sees this as a too large gap. I appreciate the "kickback" I'll get here (part of background for the thread), and recognised most agencies has this view.

Realizing "I dont know what I dont know", I wonder what the complexity would be when diving D12's and a S80, diving to (almost) thirds --> use stage for penetration, return on backgas. I do appreciate that i.e Florida "flow caves" may call for different approach due to stage buoyancy etc.

i did stage training in mexico where penetration distances can be a lot greater than florida due to the shallower depths and absence of flow. adding a stage can get you quite a bit farther into the cave and also add a good bit of time on the tail end of the dive due the recalculations it allows you to do once you pick the stages back up. it gets complicated when you are doing things like recalculating (or even just calculating) turn pressures especially when your stages and backgas tanks are different sizes. i personally think it's best to go into a class like that with enough full cave diving experience so you can focus on the thinking aspects of that style of diving and not be struggling with the mechanics of cave diving of stage handling.

in florida, especially in a place like ginnie, it can be little simpler because the stages don't take you quite as far and there's almost always flow that will help you exit so you don't tend to worry as much about stretching your gas margins too thin (forgive me for saying that but i do feel it's true). i'm not saying it's acceptable to become complacent there but it certainly can happen.

also the techniques for stage diving are a little different than diving pure thirds on stage and backgas, and certainly different than diving stages in open water where you just kill the stage and then switch to backgas

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I did stage training in the NACD apprentice course followed by the SDI Solo course in caves with my NACD instructor who taught TDI cave as well. I did not find stage diving to be very complex at all because we used a single stage bottle. Gas management was 1/3 of the stage in training rather than 1/2 + 200. The stage course set me up nicely for solo cave diving with a buddy bottle.

 

[rddvet]

NAUI cave program is one of the few that at the full cave level teach stage with the last class. Most other it's an add-on class. GUE is the other option. I know CDS it's a separate class and I believe the same to be true for TDI and IANTD(but don't quote me on it). I actually believe it should be included in the last class section of all cave programs, but it appears the people that make those decisions don't agree.
At the end of the day, the instructor is the most important aspect of all of this. If you can find an excellent NAUI instructor, that would be the way to go. My instructor was a good one, but he's no longer very active in cave diving. If getting the right instructor means taking an additional class for stage with an agency other than NAUI, then taking the extra class is what you need to do.
As an example of this, search the cave diving section here on SB for discussions on stage diving. I believe John Kieren started one or was part of one of the discussions and it is insightful. What you will find is that there are many different ways people teach cave staging. BY FAR AND LARGE the most common is 1/2 + 200 and 1/3s of backgas without discussing that some of the gas in the backgas needs to be retained as opposed to going fully to 1/3s. I'm trying to be vague and won't go into the actual details of the gas strategies/math. So depending on the instructor, the quality of how they teach cave staging is very variable.
Some instructors will also add a few extra days to the class so that you get the stage card too, but you would need to be doing very well in the cave class and the instructor would have to deem you're safe enough to jump into it.

 

[inquis]

use stage for penetration, return on backgas

Dissimilar volumes render this simple strategy less than desired. Most will penetrate on BG as well. The stage switching strategies impact where the return and reserve gas volumes are stored. (Half+ is popular because the reserve winds up on your back where it's more easily accessed if SHTF.)

 

[Alekseolsen]

Dissimilar volumes render this simple strategy less than desired. Most will penetrate on BG as well. The stage switching strategies impact where the return and reserve gas volumes are stored. (Half+ is popular because the reserve winds up on your back where it's more easily accessed if SHTF.)

Hmm, this starts making sende, at least when working with "US Bottles" in Cufts and PSI's, as opposed to X liters * Y bars = gas reserves

I'd say (the math) it's fairly easy with 12 and 11.1 liter bottles.
Thanks!