German woman dies diving Cozumel

[SailorC27]

I do not agree that a new/inexperienced diver will always be carefully supervised. I have seen new/inexperienced divers on boats that I have been on that were either paired with an instabuddy or had a dive buddy, but all were not closely supervised by the dive guide. I have seen the dive guide paired with the newbie if the newbie did not have a dive buddy. These newbies were not taken on 'kiddie' dives, but were taken to the same dive sites as the rest of the group. I have also seen dive guides hired by the newbie as a dive buddy/dive master.

I am not picking at other posts. I am just saying that newbies should not expect that they will be looked after closely. They often will be treated as any other diver with a C-card. That said they should be prepared to be responsible for themselves and not partake in a dive that is beyond their level of experience or training.

When inquiring with a dive boat operator, have you found them to generally be straight with the types of dives they are going on, and the skill required?

 

[DandyDon]

When inquiring with a dive boat operator, have you found them to generally be straight with the types of dives they are going on, and the skill required?

Well, you are visiting a Spanish speaking country and not all boat hands are fluent in English. I think the DMs generally are and usually give good briefings tho, with my experiences anyway. I will continue to recommend that new divers hire a private DM at first at least as well as consider AOW training, even tho the latter is not that much I know.

Molasses Reef off of Key Largo is a better place for new divers who do not want to hire private DMs for a few days; that's where I first went when I was brand new. On my first Coz trip, my companion hired a DM, and on my next one - I was better able to take care of that newbie buddy whom I was committed to diving with. In retrospect, I could have done all that better and safer, but I did as well as I knew at the time.

This lady was new, traveling along, and additionally distracted by her camera perhaps. I'd say that is the ultimate example of someone who needed to hire a DM. Sure, she could have learned more in advance by diving with more experienced divers - and I don't mind buddying with newbies on practice dives at home, but on an expensive trip, I want to get the most out of my dives - not save a newbie the cost of training.

 

[Tricia]

Goes back to the basic warning: when you leave the US, you leave the US. Scuba is an adventure sport of some degrees of risk management, and outside of the waters covered by the US Coats Guard and our court system, what we are taught as rules at home sometimes are seen as suggestions in the Caribbean and Latin America.

Um Don, you've posted similar comments before and up to now, I've very much agreed with you. But reading through that other thread about that poor fellow in San Diego, I think we all have to realise that no matter WHERE you dive, there may be bad operators. For me, unless I know a dive op well at my destination, I get on the regional forums on Scubaboard and ask others. It's the best way to learn "who's good and who's bad"!!

Tricia

 

[Waterskier1]

It happens. Goes back to the basic warning: when you leave the US, you leave the US. Scuba is an adventure sport of some degrees of risk management, and outside of the waters covered by the US Coats Guard and our court system, what we are taught as rules at home sometimes are seen as suggestions in the Caribbean and Latin America.

Don, what exactly, do you think the US Coast Guard and our (USA) court system do that protects or otherwise controls, limits the adventure, or mitigates risks for scuba divers?

Unless it's a commercial dive operation, and I believe we are talking recreational diving, the USCG has nothing to do with scuba diving. Granted, it does regulate some of the boating associated with scuba diving, like requiring boats with limited maneuverability to display certain day shapes, lights, or rigid signs, and they require licensing of captain who carry passengers for hire (scuba divers or not), I don't see any protection protection or regulation provided by the USCG. Granted, they do provide a great rescue service, but that is after the fact.

I'm not sure what dive rules you think are only applicable or enforceable in the USA, and are not or are lax in other parts of the world. Depth is a world wide industry recommendation, but there is no USA law or statue or regulation enforceable by some USA law enforcement agency if it is violated.

I'm interested in what you see the USCG and USA Courts provide you regarding dive safety. If I'm misread your statement, they would you kindly rephrase it.

 

[DandyDon]

Um Don, you've posted similar comments before and up to now, I've very much agreed with you. But reading through that other thread about that poor fellow in San Diego, I think we all have to realise that no matter WHERE you dive, there may be bad operators. For me, unless I know a dive op well at my destination, I get on the regional forums on Scubaboard and ask others. It's the best way to learn "who's good and who's bad"!!

Tricia

Well, the other poster seems to sometimes enjoy taking issue with anything I say, even my plans for a potluck picnic - but you are right. Diving US waters with US Ops is no guarantee of safety, not even that that their tank air is as safe as it was last time they submitted a sample for testing. It's seemed to be my general experience with Caribbean and Latin American Ops that what we see as rules in the US are less likely to be followed, but exceptions happen in our waters as well. I test my tank air at home too, and watch out for safety measures as well. My post did also include...

If you were to plan a trip somewhere, I'd suggest getting suggestions on the local geographic forum for there here on SB. My favorite Cozumel Operator uses mostly 8 diver boats with the more experienced leaving early for the distant sites, the less experienced a little later for the close & shallower sites, plus a big boat later yet for snorkelers and divers to go to a very shallow site.

 

[KY_BOB]

I hate posting in these forums, I always get flamed but I'll take a chance.


I've read the whole thread and haven't seen any mention of the ladies age or physical condition. Have I missed it?

I will not speculate on what caused her death but if she was 60 years old over-weight, it's a lot more likely that it was natural causes than if she was 25 and physically fit.

 

[Waterskier1]

Diving US waters with US Ops is no guarantee of safety, not even that that their tank air is as safe as it was last time they submitted a sample for testing.

Very True. And, many send in their samples immediately after replacement of the filters, so it's almost a gurantee that they will look good. They really should send the sample in just prior to replacement so as to get a worst case versus best case result.

It's seemed to be my general experience with Caribbean and Latin American Ops that what we see as rules in the US are less likely to be followed, but exceptions happen in our waters as well. I test my tank air at home too, and watch out for safety measures as well. My post did also include...

What my original question concerned is what "rules" you believe are in the US and not in the Caribbean and Latin America, or elsewhere.

My point is that, once a diver is certified, it not up to the Dive OP to ensure that diver dives within his or her capabilities. This includes use of a camera, or dive depth. There are industry guidelines (applicable worldwide) that suggest different depths for different skill levels/abilities/experiences, but none (to my knowledge) are rules or laws. Nor are there (or should there be IMHO) any scuba police to enforce these industry guidelines.

I bring this up only because your post implies that if this person was in the USA, the USCG or someone would have been there to ensure this person didn't dive with a camera until they were sufficiently experienced, and they also would have ensured that this diver didn't exceed any industry guidelines. I don't believe that is a fair assessment. Nor do I believe that guides or DM should be Scuba Police for certified divers.

We can agree to disagree on the Scuba Police issue, but I think we should agree to provide correct information regarding enforcement of rules in the USA versus other locations in the world.

 

[DandyDon]

My point is that, once a diver is certified, it not up to the Dive OP to ensure that diver dives within his or her capabilities. This includes use of a camera, or dive depth. There are industry guidelines (applicable worldwide) that suggest different depths for different skill levels/abilities/experiences, but none (to my knowledge) are rules or laws. Nor are there (or should there be IMHO) any scuba police to enforce these industry guidelines.

I bring this up only because your post implies that if this person was in the USA, the USCG or someone would have been there to ensure this person didn't dive with a camera until they were sufficiently experienced, and they also would have ensured that this diver didn't exceed any industry guidelines. I don't believe that is a fair assessment. Nor do I believe that guides or DM should be Scuba Police for certified divers.

We can agree to disagree on the Scuba Police issue, but I think we should agree to provide correct information regarding enforcement of rules in the USA versus other locations in the world.

I'll agree with that. My last couple of posts were not intended to address the camera aspect that might have been a factor in the accident. It was a general response to this post...

Is it appropriate for a new diver: 4 previous post certification dives, to do drift diving in Cozumel at the depths discussed in this thread. A friend of mine did this dive, as a new diver and was not real happy with the trip, especially when they surfaced and the boat was nowhere to be seen. Supposedly, they left to do a repair on the boat and they did come back but it was disconcerning to come up and not see a recovery boat. This looks like a dive out of range of a new diver but it seems to be done all the time, or am I being overly cautious?

I have seen occasions when a US dive Op required at least a minimum of AOW to do certain dives, but then I have seen newbies on other US dives just as challenging. Actual occurrences will vary.

In general, I think that US boats are more likely to comply with boating safety standards stipulated by the Coast Guard, and that dive Ops are more likely to take divers on experience appropriate dives than one might encounter around the Caribbean, in my opinion - but I don't want to hijack this thread with specific examples.

For this particular accident, I don't know that the camera was a factor? I don't like to see newbies trying to learn their cameras underwater before they really learn diving, but it happens a lot. I discouraged a newbie posting for camera advice just recently in the Sealife Owners forum, but also gave him some pointers on shopping if he was intent on acquiring one now.

For this accident, I don't know if it was diver error, medical, or what really? I would suggest a newbie traveling alone like she was be prepared to either hire a private DM or if assigned to the group DM as a buddy then to keep up with the leading DM, as well as seek to dive from boats headed to shallower sites.

 

[legions]

As of 24 November, 2009, nobody knows what caused a German divers death.

7 January, 2010, the cause of the divers death is still not known, but there are roughly four to five pages of theory's, debate and speculation.

I will with hold my comments until the actually cause of death is known, then address those issues.

NO QUARTERS

 

[SEMO Scuba]

When inquiring with a dive boat operator, have you found them to generally be straight with the types of dives they are going on, and the skill required?

The dive op I have used has a questionnaire that you have to fill out. It asks about your level of training, depth that you have dived, number of ocean & fresh water dives, number of drift dives, whether you use a camera, and your equipment needs. It asks if you want/need a dive buddy, what type of buddy that you prefer, and if you want to hire a dive-master for your buddy. It is very thorough.

That said, I have seen some divers on the boat that were making their first ocean dives. It certainly isn't for me to decide if they are capable or experienced enough, but I thought the depth and current on some of the dives might be a very big step for a freshly certified newbie. The dive site is not usually chosen until after the boat leaves the dock. So if it is going to be a deeper or more advanced dive than you are comfortable with or trained for, it will be your responsibility to stay topside.

I am in no way suggesting that the dive Op was not safe. I am only saying that they weren't babysitters.